Archer=Builder=Knight

Why shouldn't it be? It's a team-game. Every class should have a roll to fill in (Multiple possible too.), else you cannot make a class unique enough to define it in a special way like KAG does.

You see it in every team-game you can think of, it only makes sense if it's also in this game.

 

of course, its plain logic.
the knights rush and kill people, the archers defend, and when they arent needed to defend, they will probably stay behind the front line.
the builders... ...build.
and Beef creates KAG poetry.

 

The problem is, why should we have one class devoted to stalling the game?

The game is already predisposed to stalemate; think of it like this, if two equal teams go maximum offense, maximum movement with all knights, it will be stalemate forever both forces equal. Even more than that if one forced prevails over the other they will be unable to do anything upon reaching the first tower, but if they include a worker in order to attack the tower they will be disadvantaged in the knight conflict and they will likely not see the first tower at all.

And then you pile on archers whose sole function is to perpetuate stalemate?

Would be interesting to see a no archer server.

 

Kouji, I'm not going to quote what you said, but I'm playing archer. I can't and never play knight so I can tell that depending on mid range combat, it's really easy for knights to bomb them out if time correctly. Without archers being able to avoid the bomb. Extra mobility maybe would do. I've taken out many good and bad knights 1v1, it's not as simple as that. Knights can easily bunker without archer hurting them. Although when archers are on higher ground they have slight advantage, because knight gets hurts as soon as he jumps.
I was wondering that with the new set of arrow charging, if you arrows are supposed to speed up.. what happens if a player has a lag spike? I'm a very good example with 100-500 lag spikes. Also it has happened that with full charged shot knights lose 2.5 health, which is also strange.
That blue color is strange.. I feel like stun should be before or after charged shot. Because if You deal 0; 1; stun 1.5?; 1 ;1.5 then why can't I just stun the enemies all the time without even fully charging my shots? in RTDM maps if I can waste the knight bomb (if he has one) I will just bait him into my arrows that have stun and 1.5 damage? It would be an advantage for my style of archer.

 

I fail to see the problem with this. This is IMO the primary role of the archer (and towers). Many CTF games have a character with this role.

TFC, TF2: Snipers, Engineers, Demomen.
Halo 1,2,3,Reach: Snipers.
Tribes: Sentinel, Technician.
Battlefield Heroes: The Commando

Furthermore, it should be hard to progress and continue a push. Unlike other CTF, a single flag capture wins the game.

I see flag captures all the time in ticketless games, and often enough in ticket games.

If tickets are a problem, it's because of what I like to call "derp knight syndrome". I see knights routinely go toe to toe when outnumbered no matter the odds. 5:1, no problem! I'll just power slash, that'll kill em all! I see knights with half a heart continue to push up to a defended tower (suck it stone).

As I see it, the reason knight pushes stall is because knights don't protect the builders with them. They push too quickly and derp around under the enemy tower while their friendly builder(s) must find a safe way to advance across no man's land to ladder up the tower. Archers aren't the only enemy to a builder trying to push. Builders are the primary target for any defending character. Archers shoot them. Knights jump out of their tower, glide past the derping assault knights and either stab or bomb to death the builder.

If the KAG community wants to see more flag captures, then protect your damned builders.

 

But if there's a certain amount of archers defending then it's literally impossible to get past, 5 archers shooting high power shots it doesn't matter how much teamwork there is, your shields will be broken and you die. In games like TF2 you have classes like snipers and engineers, however most maps have a great variety of terrain, and ways of avoiding long or close range combat, so the terrain balances the classes along with each class having huge weaknesses. The reason ticketless games get flag caps in mainly cos castles take damage and need repairing, and stone eventually starts to run out, that and people waste resources on needless structure which speeds up the process, that and you can kamikaze to victory no worries in a way that would eat away your tickets in no time in a mixed CTF/deathmatch game.

If you could get in closer to castles without been bum raped that'd be a start, and then numbers of knights and builders would have more effect cos more would be alive by the time you get there to do something.

 

In my opinion I think that instead of decreasing stun range or changing how the archer charge works, the actual stun time should be changed. I have had instances were I would get hit by an arrow, and then 1.5(Very rough estimate) seconds later another arrow hits me and does damage. The stun time should be shorter so that archers would have to co-operate to take down a shielding knight.

 

So, this is the problem people see in archers:
If they are untouchable by knights and builders, they can easily take them out. What this means is, unless you charge all at once, the archer will destroy all oncoming opponents
:D



But, i think there IS a solution
:(


:):):)


Tunneling!
Archers cant dig anything but dirt, not only does this remove these pesky little flies, but is also a great strategy!

 

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The problem is that no amount of skill protects you from a hail of arrows. Many of us here regularly play with other skilled players and engage in clan matches, yet we're still complaining.

Saying that "it should be hard to progress" and "protect you builders" is incredibly simplistic. That's like talking about poverty and saying that "some people shouldn't have as much money than other people" and that they should "work harder".

@Dawn: Tunneling does avoid the issue of archers up to a point and I think it's a strategy that could use more serious attention, but it's problematic for several reasons. It's very very slow, there are many ways to defend against it, and it can easily be used against you by the enemy.

 

Vaugen and I built a tunnel yesterday to attack a base. Rather than tunneling the whole way, we built a tunnel out of wood. Easy peasy, fast, and safe. We got into the base. Archers couldn't do shit. We won the game.

 

I have seen wooden roofs working a lot of times, but I've also seen it fail a lot of times.

The thing about making wooden tunnels is that knights can easily fuck you up. The thing about archer tower spamming is that it only takes 5 archers to stop an army, and the rest of the team can soldier all they want. Usually the team with the archer spammers have more knights on the battle field, because the non-arrow spamming team's knights are either killed by said arrow spamming or not peeking out of cover. A majority of wooden tunnels are derailed by enemy knights and builders. It also becomes a cluster-fuck, forcing a lot of players in a small area, and they tend to just stop when that one builder who is smart enough to be doing this runs out of wood.

Basically, yes, wooden tunnels can work, but they have a much, MUCH smaller success rate then archer spamming in towers. I like most of Kouji's plans because they're very well thought out, but I can see the higher mobility being a pain. When an archer perfectly times a shot when a knight is fighting another knight killing him, you give him a kill. When a knight pulls off a good bomb throw killing the archer, you give him the kill. Also, if an archer can outrun a knight, knights are going to be annoyed constantly that they didn't get that asshole archer that kept on stunning him.

 

The problem with people stacking archers is because there isn't really a reason to push forward. If the enemy is coming to you, most people will camp if it means free kills. Yes, tunneling and creating a ceiling both work as a counter to mass archers, if you have a few competent builders and a group of knights willing to actually wait behind cover as it gets built (and throw back bombs as necessary). But, this only works when most of the team knows what they are doing, or else you will still be leaking lives. You need a solution that can balance out stacking archers across skill levels.

As an example, how about tracking lives to one decimal place, and take away less and less of a single life when you die as you get closer to the enemy base. We already do something similar for respawn counters so that one team pushing forward won't always get overwhelmed by the reinforcements from the other team. So, let's try the same thing for lives too. Yeah, I'm sure it will take a while to strike a balance between what we have now and mass lemming rushes, but it would mean that an army going up against a filled archer tower will have a better chance at overtaking it without mass losses. And with a system like this, it wouldn't be hard to control it with variables, so it can be turned off easily for things like clan matches if wanted.

 

I don't know how far a knight can throw a bomb by blocks, but if archer stun only worked when a knight was inbbomb throwing distance (or 3/4) then knights could actually kill them.

I never really find archer spamming or a hail offshore to be annoying, no better way then to bomb jump and jab them to death.like what most people have said archers should be rewarded for being up close and not be buffed but feel cheated and bored at a long distance.

I find the game enjoyable, an I find a good knight can outwit and win agasint five archers. I don't see why everyone whines so much about bein hit by archers the only time I am ever hit is when I m being s campy
Knight or not attacking, or sitting behind some defense, stay moving.

I also disagree completely with the archers not being able to grab the flag easily, when the tent is on the open, moat of the time having a tower in front and not being covered an archer can jump in jump out or jump in and swap to knight.

~sent from my iPod

 

This is sorta the problem. How many of your average knight can bomb jump? How many of your average archer can sit in a tower and spam arrows? Something tells me that the ratios don't match up here.

Sure, and a good builder can kill a few archers, and a good archer can kill 2 knights. But we're not really taking about the good players, we are taking skill out of the question and looking whether the archer is straight up overpowered in certain cases, and if they should truly, as Beef said, be "the brakes" of the game.

I know you're using your iPod, so I may be misunderstanding you, but I doubt this a bit. I've seen great players go down to arrow spamming all the time, and it's so hard for a group to take a tower with 5 archers spamming arrows along with knights blocking them. It's a question whether archer support is too... supporty or not. If it was difficult to get 5 archers spamming away for a team, then yes, it should be difficult for the other team to break that, but it's not difficult, its very easy actually, most times I notice that the archers aren't even working together, they're just doing their own things. Even if you're moving constantly, a couple archers will make you continuously hide in cover and around beds, making your team progress extremely slowly, and the amount of not-so-adept players being killed is too high, making the game not only less fun for them, but for the entire team bleeding tickets

Sorry for the essay-length post!

 

I think it's reasonable to give archers more mobility for defensive measures. Just make them unable to fire arrows while climbing the various objects that they use to escape. It's just silly that archers have a completely unhindered fire rate while they are climbing and leaping from tree to tree, considering they have no tails. I can see trees being used for getaways, and archers need to dodge arrows while playing their point and click minigame from treetops, but needing to move quickly from tree to tree to avoid bombs and stronger attackers isn't an offensive maneuver and should at least slow down firing.