Class Bawww/Argument thread

Archers should be wounded by bombs. The only archers I see commonly killed by bombs are the not-so-great ones that don't see the bomb flying at his face. It mostly kills the slower builders. Good archers SHOULD be wounded by bombs, otherwise, how are you going to get them to back off for a sec? Most towers, especially most with archer spammers in them, have beds in them. If a bomb hurts an archer bringing them down to a heart or half a heart, if they have any brains they'll go heal. This gives knights and builders to finally have a chance to advance. All it takes is to remove two or three archers to really advance, if you have enough knights and a couple of builders.

I think a chance to stun if a better idea then always stun. I think leaving it to chance will be fairly frustrating for the actual players, but it will help the balance of the game, letting knights advance a bit more easily with a very subtle change.

I don't really want to see buildings nerfed. There is something so beautiful about taking down a tower after a long match, such a feeling of achievement to take down such beasts. I want to see catapults buffed. I personally think they should not take damage from archers. At least much less. I hesitate when I say this though, because I fucking hate catas. I think that along with this catas should do a lot less player damage and knock back (I've already ranted about this before :D) because they can fire too often with way too much accuracy. That's another thing. Maybe a cata's fire should be more sporadic, so it's harder to hit players. I do think cata's should be damageable by bombs, other cata fire, hammer, and sword though (and fire arrows once they finally get here). I also think that arrows should just pass through catas. I think the archers should be aiming at the harder target of the builder or knight firing the cata.

Also, as Monsteri said, archers should have shorter range. They should not be able to easily sit n' shit in a tower and shoot people easily. I think the longer the range, the less accurate the arrows become. I still like running through an open battlefield with arrows raining on me, but I don't want the archers to have fucking scopes to power-shoot me over and over with.

I kinda want to see a dash mechanic for knights, or possible ALL classes. We will be seeing new classes, so maybe with a fast
rogue-like class we can see archers being caught up to. They would have to do much less damage, of course. I also worry about that though, because that might be way too unfair for archers. I don't know much about game design, so I will let the devs show us what they have in mind when new classes finally start popping up.

Lastly, as you could see from the new title and if you look back at what this thread started about (lawl) then you can see it's not about how fucked up knight combat is. Yes. We know. It's fucked up. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

Archers are armed with Longbows. Their range is as effective as the draw length//power put into it. Their effectiveness is based mostly on teamplay and the rest of your team, as any knight can easily win on an archer on flat terrain, and even forested terrain without backup.

Bombs already have a huge blast radius, and kill outright for anyone ('cept blocking knights) that are about 3 men near it.

Also, as Monsteri said, archers should have shorter range. They should not be able to easily sit n' shit in a tower and shoot people easily. I think the longer the range, the less accurate the arrows become. I still like running through an open battlefield with arrows raining on me, but I don't want the archers to have fucking scopes to power-shoot me over and over with.

The big problem with archers here is, it's 2-D. The miss-rate in comparison to RL archery is quadruply decreased due to the fact that you can't miss sideways, only up or down. Archers can stay in a tower and shoot from there for any reason whatsoever, it's a valid tactic held before and now.

There are many tactics to defend from a volley of arrows, as there are many tactics to defend from arrows breaking the catapult. Builders are for that, and workshop shields are for that, too.

The problem is - and I'm guessing we're talking about archers in the battle now - the tactics of either team. Yes, archers can hit from long ranges, but they die close up - they do have the chance to shoot an incoming knight and such. Archers are wounded by bombs. They're like magnets for bombs, and die easily to an enemy bomb even from an indiscriminate distance away, generally.

Come to think of it, knights (being our common footsoldier) should be able to carry siege ladders with them to scale them towers!

 

not completely true.
the classes are in fact very balanced,
but the archer is easier to use.
this way, a noob can kill a normal knight with just a little luck.
the knight class takes more skill.
if you'd take the best archer, and the best knight, and put them in an arena, the knight would definately win.
(please dont take it too literally, of course a knight would defeat an archer in an arena, but you know what I meant!)
archers just have to get used to the gravity in KAG,
while some knights may never be able to perform a succesful bombjump.

it just takes more skill to throw the bomb than it takes to avoid it. the only reason some people get mad about it, is because they suck at it.

Exid is awesome.

 

I think the builder should be given a fucking diamond drill that shoots laser beams and insta-kills everyone. He should also get an attack unicorn that would bash through walls and shoots rainbows out of his ass. It's only fair and would help the balancing issues between knight and archer.

 

Err...I only got the part of a fucking diamond drill. Do you know how much fluid that would take?!

And I take it, you mean buff the builder? Every class is balanced as far as I see it, the only difference is based on the player skill and tactical knowledge.

Builders build at a quick rate. :p

 

To all knights/archer haters. Get ez'd.

 

thats nonsense. diamond drills dont shoot lasers. everyone knows that.
</br>--- merged: Aug 6, 2012 3:23 PM ---</br>

this might be the only time in my life i agree with him...

 

stuff that i got to say
1 arrows can kill you and your team mates even when the archer is dead, i know even my own team mate archer has killed me several times from them dying.
2 for the op i think it is a great idea in a realism > game play sort of view, in real life have you tried to run as fast as you can forward as backward? hey why dont we just add it that if you run backwards too long you fall other and get stunned for a second? do you want it as bad as that?
3. knights have a greater risk then the archer and the builder
knights have to suffer through close combat to deal damage, many glitches and lag
archers stay far away from the action dont need to deal with any glitches and lag is not much of an issue.
builders i wont deal with as they can be minecrafting away from the action with a low risk factor or be a front line fighter where risk is very high
4 and 5 are just ideas/suggestions
4. archers when charging can not change direction
5. make bombs vaporize arrows

wanted to post this a while

 

Sure, 1v1 on a flat playing field with nothing going on, the knight can just shield all the way to the edge of the screen. But in a actual match oriented scenario with all sorts of shit going on, an archer is simply to too powerful, because of their ability to run away and camp in towers. It's less of a combat 1v1 balance problem, it's a game balance problem. Because of it, the balance of the classes (how many you need working together) is off, because when archers camp in towers knights become much less useful. Systematically, archers unbalance the game a bit, which Contrary and I both gave reasons why IN DETAIL. Also, I think a class which is much easier to play is a balance issue, if it's an extreme, because this is a class, team based game. It revolves around having a balance of classes which all plays their roles. If one is much easier then the other, then we get hundreds of them camping in towers, which actually works, which it should not.

I think archers should be able to aim while charging, but it should be slowed. Knights are simply too mobile for archers to deal with, and it makes aiming for catas and other archers too difficult. I do think archers shouldn't be as easy to win as they are, but I don't want it to be too hard.

As for backpedalling effecting knights, I don't think it will that much. Most knights retreating run facing forward anyway, and if they don't they have their shields up.

For the actual functionality of backpedalling, it hurts archers in two ways, which I think is fair. One; they can't mindlessly spam keeping knights from catching up to them forcing them to hold up their shields. Two; they can't see the battlefield, so they can actually see whats going on behind them besides what the screen centered on your character shows you. That actually effects knights too, but it's not as much of a problem because they're only melee and mid-close range (bombs).

 

This whole thread in tl;dr version - Archers have been nerfed, nerfed and nerfed again but it is still not good enough. We want archers to take 2 hours to take an arrow out even though the game is in alpha and there are bigger issues to deal with than class balancing (even though the devs have done what they can to balance it with the current game engine)

 

I think archers and knights are pretty even ATM and the only hard place to get them is when you have to climb ladders up towards them. But I'm fine archers are extremely vulnerable, yet manouverable while knights are defensive and offensive it works quite well i think. Builders are Abit powerfully in this update but meh who cares :P

 

I JUST GOT THE PERFECT IDEA!
what if range determines the damage of an arrow?
of course, red and yellow arrows still get a bonus, but if you fire from a tower, fourty tiles away from battle,
arrows should be pretty useless. that would make the hit from a tower camper only damage half a heart with yellow arrow.
this forces archers to get out of their towers, and put themselves in danger!
of course, a yellow arrow right in the face of a knights would damage two hearts, instead of 1.5, because it should pay to get close.
my idea of balance would be:
0 - 2 = two and a half hearts.
3 - 5 = two hearts.
6 - 15 = one and a half
16 - 25 = one
26+ = half
these numbers are the number of blocks the arrows travels.
this is with yellow arrows.
with red 2 blocks would be two hearts, 4 would be one and a half...
with gray arrows, everything over 16 blocks is zero.

what do you think?

 

The really only thing that makes class unbalanced is the lack of teamwork. Why do you think archers easily pick of people who are not using team work? They are easy to target and it's what supposedly makes archer "op". Now if you used team work you could easily achieve anything. The enemy can have a big super fort that just touching it kills you. However a group consisting of a builder, 1-2 knights (depending on there skill and the current situation, though 2 is much more safer) and an archer, could easily pass any fort as long as they stick together and use team work.

Builder is obvious, they will be the person to get you in the actual fort and such. The knight/s are used to defend the builder, archer and each other (if there are 2 knights). While one is defending the other can be attacking with slashes and jabs. The defending knight can get in a sneaky jab to help the attacking knight. To solve the problem of "100 archers vs 1 knight", if the knights were clever they would move back and forth, with there shield up, to support each other. Doing so will spread the arrows between them and allowing a longer survival rate. The archer is used to help out the team by picking of stray people, archers and anything else that would decide to along to cause harm. Yes you may think oh this will be boring archer is being support, well would you rather be an archer who supports his team mates and get a partially guaranteed win or would you rather be the archer who thinks he is pro and die every minute? Thus leading to raging team mates and "hurtful" comments towards you.

So for those who want a tl;dr version - Learn to use team work. Lack of team work is what makes classes unbalanced. Archers are only op when teamwork is not used. Devs made this game to utilise the skill of team work. Hur dur bai.

 

The thing is that a builder and 2 knights can't over take a tower and 3 archers, easily, at least. Archers are very accurate, it's not hard to kill a builder. And stun makes it so whenever knights are outnumbered by archers which they can't get to, they will die. The problem is that even a considerable amount of teamwork can't break a tower with 5-6 archers in it, and with a bunch of knights pouring out. Even with teamwork, there's a reason why the winning team almost always loses at the end. Basically, once the archers out-number just a group of knights, they knights are rendered useless, because they can either retreat of slowly die off.

If one strategy takes a lot less teamwork to work, then it is unfair. Having a bunch of arrows spammers camp in a tower and do their own thing is not what I call teamwork, and watching that usually win over a fairly coordinated team with more players trying to siege a tower, makes me thing something is unbalanced. Saying that "you just need more teamwork" is the same as saying "you just need to be better" when you're facing an opponent that clearly has some advantage (like a better weapon). You shouldn't need to be way more coordinated to beat a much less coordinated team. We aren't just talking about "pro servers" or anything. When one team is more coordinated then they other, they should have a better chance, but when a bunch of archers spam arrows on their heads, it simply doesn't happen.

 

Everyone is acting like the Knight is the victim and archer is OP. Here's the realistic non-biased view. Archer's can spam arrows and take out knights if there are enough of them. Using builders and Knights together is still hard because a power shot knocks knights off the ladder.

A knight has a 20 coin nuke. If you don't completely suck at throwing bombs, it's not hard to gibble someone, especially field builders. People have been saying it's easy to run away from bombs.

1. If you run away anytime you see a bomb lit, you're going to spend a lot of time behind walls (Oh wait I'm guessing this is why archers stay up in their towers)
2. If you hold and time your bomb running will at most leave you with a heart left (if you're a builder)

Not to mention if a knight is shielding someone from a bomb, it means exposing himself to an angled shot, or backshot if he's covering from the opposite direction.

Archer's aren't going to come down and fight on the battlefield when knights have bombs and knights aren't going to get rid of their hand nukes.

The archer isn't OP he's just been forced into a play style that wasn't really intended for him. Like who really likes to spend all game sitting in the same fucking place shooting, getting hit, retreating to a bed, and repeat? Not sure what the fix for this would be but he definitely needs to be tweaked, it's just not as fun as the other classes. They need something to encourage moving around the map

 

For those who still complain that 5-6 archers are op this and op that. Maybe a group of 3-4 is not enough to take them on. However if the whole dam team actually got together and helped each other out, then there would be no problem. I have seen teams with at least 3-4 pros in them yet still loose. Why? Even though pros are, well pros they can't do everything themselves. They need to have a good team behind their back in order for them to actually be effective. It's the lack of team work that makes most of the class system unfair. Less "single person who thinks they can take on the world" and more "I have a team. I will help them out".

 

This thread is hilarious. And at the same time clusterfuck.

 

Again again again, if one team has to use a lot more teamwork and coordination to win the the other team, then it is unbalanced. Spamming from a tower needs no coordination, so all they players that don't want to play along just camp in a tower and spam arrows, and they win which shouldn't be the case.

Again, if you die by a bomb, it's your own damn fault. I usually play builder (rave towers don't build themselves), and I'm usually the one with the ladders. Trust me when I say archers are much more of a menace then knights with bombs.

First (Jesus I'm doing this again): Knights are most conservative with their bombs. A knight can't just spam bombs like archers can spam arrows. Most bombs reserve them for other knights with shields or guys in towers.

Second: It's easier to dodge bombs on the field. When you're in a tower, you are constricted to the tower. The bomb only lands in one place, if you're on an open field it's much more easier to avoid a bomb by just going the opposite direction it's flying at you.

Third: People camp in towers because knights can't reach them. It's like snipers in any game, you can shoot and kill people without being in any danger. It's perfectly viable for an archer to go out in the field, you see it all the time. Usually it's the better players out there. Too many players just don't want to work together, and rather sit in a tower and spam. You don't fix this by powering up archers on the field, you fix it by making the cheap, unbalanced option (sitting in a tower and spamming) not so appealing to all the people who don't want to play with the team. Making catas more powerful, or giving archers a shorter range.

I just want to reinforce that not camping in a tower and actually trying to move up is perfectly legit for archers. Most archers just camp in towers because it's easier and safer, why would you not? An archer is out of the teamwork loop when they do this. On the field, the archer relies on builders to build fortifications and knights to protect them out in the open. Right now, archers do nothing but sit in a tower without any effort or teamwork and rain death.

 

No. Archers have been nerfed enough. :D

 

But camping in a tower sucks and is boring. It's only fun when an extremely large group of idiots come and you take them on alone. It's certainly not fun when clever people come. Besides the more you choose the cheap option, the more it will spread amongst other players (mainly newer ones) the more people will want to play alone and not commit to team work. If you can show that you can work in a team and actually help each other and go out there, it would be much more better and it will rub of onto people. That way team work will be vastly used and you won't need to worry about op archers or the like.