Snags

Furai · Mar 31, 2013

Max/Geti said:

I mentioned last post that I’d have a talk about some snags we’ve hit.
While I understand any halt to progress hurts for you guys, I figure that telling you about what’s going on keeps you in the loop with our expectations, and is definitely for the better.
Our major snag at the moment is performance. While we were expecting worse performance than with classic, we certainly weren’t expecting a hit this hard.
The client is not a problem - it runs at 30fps even on a shitty laptop with a 1.8Ghz cpu and a 64mb graphics card, so - great!
The server however, is a problem. It runs fine for a TDM game with a small number of players, however even for 8v8 in war mode, the CPU usage is unacceptable. With 12 players, the CPU of our box started maxing out. This is something we need to address before releasing anything, because we feel that it’s certainly not fair to server owners to plunder their boxes, and not fair to you guys to release something that cant have a stable server ecosystem.
The client runs quickly because it doesn’t have to do nearly enough logic - it doesn’t have to think about what’s happening for every object in the game, just the ones near to the player. The server, on the other hand, has to simulate everything.
To address this we’re considering a few things:

JIT compiling the scripts - this basically means the scripts get turned into something that can run on the CPU instead of on a separate VM that runs on the CPU. By taking out that layer of abstraction, we’d get a speed up of script execution. This requires working with the authors of an existing JIT compiler for AS (as the existing one doesn’t work with KAG as it stands, we’re looking into why), or commissioning a custom one (as we’re not in a position to write our own, time and experience wise). The existing JIT compiler doesn’t have an existing mac compatible version, but since it’s only the server that has performance issues, and not many people host OSX servers, it may still be an option.

Cheating, and building some of the script logic into the optimised, precompiled KAG binary. This really does feel like a last resort bandaid, as it doesn’t fix the issue of scripts being too slow when used in massive numbers (there’s about 30 scripts per player object, compared to 1-4, which is why the performance is tied to player count). It would also reduce our ability to iterate on the player logic at a basic level, because we’d lose the runtime reloading and no compile/distribute cycle waits that we get from scripts. We would like to avoid this if we can, but we might have to bite the bullet if we want to ship before we run out of money.

Continuing to madly optimise the scripts as we have been and hope we can make it fast enough without a JIT compiler or other native compilation options. We’ll likely do this alongside the other options anyway, but if we push it too far, the code will start to become very hard to understand and debug as more and more clever optimisation hacks make their way into the codebase. On one hand, this is kind of good - modders will get a look at what code looks like in the real world when you need it to run fast and need to ship your game, but on the other hand, it’s very easy to mistake carefully optimised code for code written without rhyme or reason, and we don’t want to encourage people to write bad code.

The other snags are related to bandwidth use (it’s high, not extreme but not nearly as minimal as classic, especially during action packed siege fights in war) and modding issues - modding works fine inside of base, but making mods using the intended system has quite a few large issues. Progress with single player content hasn’t been nearly as quick as we’d like either.
We’re weighing up our options and we’ll keep you posted on how things are going. We wanted to get a release out over the past week (actually, last weekend), but we’ve just uncovered more work to do.
As I said, I understand that more posts about the game coming out can be very frustrating, especially as you’ve been ready for it for months and months, but I hope you can support us while we drive forwards on making sure the game itself is ready for you.
Once it’s playable at a larger scale, we’ll be giving access to the beta via the forums. We’re very likely to omit fixing modding issues, optimising bandwidth use and waiting for tutorial content to be finished for that release so it can be out as soon as physically possible. Those points will definitely be addressed in time (and likely in that order as well), but we’re on the same page as you guys - we want you to be playing it above all else.
On a lighter note, there’s probably a video of some WAR gameplay coming (including boat to boat ballista combat, and possibly accidental keg hilarity) once MM gets time to put it together.
Max/Geti
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Original post: http://devlog.kag2d.com/post/46713591731/snags

PinXviiN · Mar 31, 2013

Almost there...

Sniips · Mar 31, 2013

Aaaaaaaaaaalmost there . . . :p
Every seconds we're closer to the beta ! CMON WATCH ! GO FASTER !

Worm · Mar 31, 2013

-Q · Mar 31, 2013

This is bullshit. Building up a game from just scripts is pretty fucking stupid in general, I think. Just compile all of the commonly used functions into the native architecture and be done with it. JIT compilation is only going to bog up development and land you all in a world of pain. You're only making a game, not developing the next Java.

Reactorcore · Mar 31, 2013

Whats the biggest thing that causes the performance hit?
Curious to know what to look out for when you're developing a multiplayer game, if its possible to anticipate this, that is.

eamono · Mar 31, 2013

I'm sad that they ran into a problem like this, I've done enough school projects to know how it feels when you work for weeks (or in your case, months) on something only to have one of the most important things be wrong/missing. But at the same time I'm glad that the Devs hard to fix this problem to release the best and most complete product that they can.

I feel bad that you guys are running out of money though, i hope you are able to release soon :)

Hella · Mar 31, 2013

Reactorcore said: ↑

Whats the biggest thing that causes the performance hit?
Curious to know what to look out for when you're developing a multiplayer game, if its possible to anticipate this, that is.
Click to expand...

It was the competitive aspect, it just drove the framerate down the shitter.

thebonesauce · Apr 1, 2013

Hella said: ↑

It was the competitive aspect, it just drove the framerate down the shitter.
Click to expand...

I fucking love you for this.

Reactorcore · Apr 1, 2013

Hella said: ↑

It was the competitive aspect, it just drove the framerate down the shitter.
Click to expand...

Very funny, but I meant technical what part of the game is causing it.

The physics, the map, players characters? Which causes the big problem?

thebonesauce · Apr 1, 2013

Yeah MM. Reactorcore is on the case! Why hasn't this guy been made a developer yet?!

On topic and jokes aside, this is probably the ONLY negative point of having a small, close-knit group of testers. This type of thing happens, so hopefully this shit gets figured out so we can enjoy mounted dinosaurs and shit.

eamono · Apr 1, 2013

wait why do i keep hearing about dinosaurs? i thought it was just some idiot trolling, considering he was also talking about a mage class and air to ground missiles

-Q · Apr 1, 2013

eamono said: ↑

wait why do i keep hearing about dinosaurs? i thought it was just some idiot trolling, considering he was also talking about a mage class and air to ground missiles
Click to expand...

Dinos are a confirmed mount for knights.

no, people are just counting their mods before they're developed

CookieEpic · Apr 1, 2013

I really want to play the beta. Seriously can't wait.

*sees teasers*

I can wait.

Hella · Apr 1, 2013

No, no, dinosaurs have been developed already.

eamono · Apr 1, 2013

Okay now im just more confused

Thats one thing i love about this game, MM doesn't need to have a press release every time someone leaks anything about the game.
Except for the thing with steam lol

Gofio · Apr 1, 2013

Hella said: ↑

No, no, dinosaurs have been developed already.
Click to expand...

pterodactyluses are pretty awesome. flying reptiles ftw.

TheWids · Apr 1, 2013

I hope this is an April fools joke

Gofio · Apr 1, 2013

TheWids said: ↑

I hope this is an April fools joke
Click to expand...

peh, of course it is. snags, peh, who'd fall for that?
dinosaurs, thats what the future brings us.

Monsteri · Apr 1, 2013

I can leak some dinosaur footage if someone pays me. Because if I do leak it, I'll be permabanned but at least I'll be able to retire then and live a happy life ever after.

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