Hearts(?)

Why are you repeating yourself? I already addressed both those issues, but what it really comes down to is people's opinions about which is more fun. I think we just need more tests with half hearts/different drop rates and such. (Also, I thought it was obvious but I have read every post in this thread, maybe read my other posts if you haven't. It seems like it.)

 

So its not right that anything unlikely happens by random chance? That's pretty much what you're saying.
Hearts aren't even the biggest issue when it comes to kills by luck, I'm having a really hard time trying to follow your logic here.

 

I meant opinion on whether or not we want more hearts in game, it really doesn't matter anyways. I can hardly understand the second half of your edit due to grammar issues. If what you're saying is that people with more experience dislike random factors in game then that's one big generalization. Loki has already stated he enjoys the randomness of heart drops, and I don't think I could find anyone who disagrees that he is a VERY experienced player.

"Don't worry, you'll understand my logic when you get good enough at KAG"
That's both a non sequitor and an ad hominem, I don't mean any offense but your logic is terrible.

 

I play since im 6 all games i find or buy, im now 20, yes 14 years of hardcore gaming on my young shoulders....

Aswell i play like 24/7 kag, i dont hate ranomd factors, i love them cauze they can give you surprises, surprises in games can make you get an adrenaline push - which can a. lead you to total ownage, such as a sick kill spree. b. its too much you lose concentration - you die.

Seriously, get away from the hearts, complain about skybridges or other crap stuff, but god please! leave the hearts alone^^

 

i didnt say no to skybridges, i sayd they are crap. (big diffrent)

Aswell, stop insult people.

Atleast it's for me obvious now, arguing to you is useless.
And ffs, i please you, dont waste MM's fucking time with stuff you simple dont like.

 

Now you insult mm and geti, they make games for kids & womens... wow wait that insults the WHOLE kag players.... how are you gone make them happy ? with rage posts about a minor thing you dont like....? ofc, all will be happy soon now. (SARCASM DETECTED <.<)

 

Nintendo's developers do :D :p
Anyway, I like an element of luck to be in the game. If a noob can kill 5 knights through luck, why is that bad? They won't be able to repeat it everytime, and they are more likely to keep playing if they think they can do that. I see many knights on half a heart killing full hearted knights, sometimes multiple at a time, so skill still plays a major factor in this game, not just the randomness of hearts.

 

Why do i fear if Cagar's vision of KAG being competitive it will absolutely "iron curtain" any noobs from progressing in skill easily like we do now in KAG. Unless we just smack it into a game mode?

 

@Cagar yes I agree in terms of multiplayer competitive gameplay design it's better for players to get equivalent rewards for equivalent tasks. However you are taking it a little too far. KAG doesn't take that much skill. It's about 60% ping, 15% miscellaneous in-game uncontrollable factors (luck) and 25% skill. Obviously movement to take some % away from luck is great but you don't need to be quite that inflammatory about it. I get where you're coming from! I also hate how a lot of modern games cater to noobs, who I truly believe shouldn't given anything over better players. I wish KAG was 100% skill (provided a high skill ceiling is provided). But you're making us, the competitive design minded folk, look like assholes. Chill out, bro.

@Loki I dunno man, but I don't really get excited about whether I get a heart or not. I'm just kind of annoyed when I go on a big streak of not finding any at all. I mean I guess it isn't really a *big* game problem, it's mainly the principle of the thing. I think we've all been fucked over by not getting a key heart at a key moment.

I agree that having highs and lows in a game improve pacing and the overall experience. I mean there's nothing like going on a really stupid ridiculous streak and feeling a little smug for it, and these are only allowed by having low points of less success- but I think the imperfect netcode (as all netcode is) already supplies enough of of a random factor. After a while, having a lot of luck in your failures just feels shitty and luck in your success poisons the victory. I think that some of us just want a token effort being made into making our skill and experience a little more meaningful.

I think one thing people are missing is that this is not just a buff but also a nerf to healing. My point when I proposed half heart consistent drops was not only to end unnecessary dry spells but also to stop noobs from diving into a knight moshpit, spamming left click furiously and killing like eight guys because of lag and the fact that each enemy is dropping hearts? We've all seen this happen. It's horseshit. You should be able to kill eight guys out of good use of abilities (shield, charge, bash, bomb) and not straight up out of spamming and ridiculous healing. I mean this doesn't happen that often but the fact that it does happen is offensive on principal.

 

Sounds great. Having to choose between movement and outputting damage would add a lot of depth to knight combat. Though I think that backpedaling while charging would be even more powerful than it is now- and I consider it to be the dominant strategy in most instances. I can't really think of a fix to that- unless you make charging force you to stay in position- but that would render it useless. Unless jabs don't interrupt them anymore. But then how much damage would jab spamming get before the charge hit comes out? And would the range difference make it possible to anticipate a jab, backstep, charge, and whiff punish? If you jumped and jabbed (similar to shield jumping) would you keep your momentum? Losing it would look silly but jump jabbing would allow you to move while spamming negating the whole stationary while attacking dealio? Would this be a viable system when lag and group dynamics are involved?

Man few games make me nerd out like KAG.

 

I see what you mean. The dominant strategy for me is usually either charging and double slash or backpedal doubleslash. Either way, it works even against large numbers of knights (presuming I have already used my bomb and that didn't work).
I don't think i'd like to see this nerfed too much, because the double slash is a little tricky and fiddly to pull off in the first place, the only thing that should be fixed is charge attacks when its not a double slash and ones that happen too early. I often manage to pull off charge attacks when the meter is only 3 quarters full.

Perhaps though, what could be nerfed, is the ability to backpedal while charging. Instead of backpedalling you are forced to move forward. But, lets say you can stop for a moment, that doesn't add to the charge but instead freezes the bar for a few moments. You can then pick back up on the charge if you keep moving forward. If you stayed still for too long the charge would vanish and you'd have to start again. Kind of puts the name "charge" attack into perspective, because you have to charge to activate it. This would add some very interesting timing mechanics, but it might also be annoying as hell, so it would be something to be tested extensively.

Back to the topic at hand though, I do agree that getting a heart isn't really something thats a big exciting moment, half the time you're unaware of getting one until you look at your heart bar. If you look at the way half hearts would work: Presuming you would collect them, this means half a heart per kill reward, which seems fair. The only instances where I can see you're not going to collect them are if it falls through a trap, you're an archer, or you're killing via catapult. The first is just unfortunate coincedence and you can't really do much about it because it happens to full hearts too. Getting full hearts still would be nice, and I wouldn't mind them being random, because of the fact I get a health boost from a kill no matter what happens, allowing much more push success.

The second and third are interesting because it is either unfair or it adds a secondary healing mechanic to the archer. If you're an archer getting lots of pot kills on approaching knights, while the knights on your team are staving off ones you're not getting, you're leaving a lot of spare half hearts around for them to collect, without doing any damage to themselves because the enemy are already dead. So actually this would be a buff to archers, who can help their frontline knights a lot better by providing them with their usual thinning of the enemy soldiers but a constrant stream of life to push. Catapulting would do this too but it's also rare for a catapulter to get kills.

Though it does sound kind of good that way, i'd prefer heart ownership, because that way it is truly no longer a question of luck whether you get a heart or not. Usually a different knight grabs your heart when you dont want it, and archers barely ever get to see their own hearts. If hearts just had ownership for about 30 seconds before becoming free again, knights and archers would have a bit of time to collect their hearts before it's open game. I think archers having to run to their hearts still is fair, because they often get a lot more kills than knights and also if they got their health instantly they would never be encouraged to move from their spot.

 

I hate it when you pick up a heart to save for later and someone else is healed by it

 

Asymmetrical maps don't really make much of a difference since there's so much room you can't travel through. When you look at the whole thing, you start to think one team or the other will have the advantage, but the team that manipulates the terrain to best fit their needs is usually the victor.

And luck spices things up. It's nice.