old/new archer abilities

hey guys,
those are not my suggestions,
realian posted them in a thred from me...

so what he thouged and what i totally agree is

- raise archer health from 2 hearts back to 3 hearts
- raise charged shot damage from 1 hearts back to 2 hearts ( so the old damaging system )
- make legolas shots (or multi draw, whatever it's called) only do 1 heart of damage per hit
- give back stun stomp so we can jump on knight heads and stun them

what do you guys think?
im sure the guys who play knight here will say '' hey! archers are so overpowered! dont make them damage more!
thats unfair! ''
i just think thats false, if you look at the kd, knights have more than 100 often , kingdom had 500 today : D
and archers often have just 100 - 0 , im sure you guys will think, yes ofcourse im an archer thats why i want those suggestions but... i play kag now very long and i dont wanna be a show off when i say that im quite good... and in kag beta in this patch, archers dont have big chances to kill a knight.. i think it should be balanced that a knight and an archer are somehow equals... ( i know archers are made for range but thats boring! )

 

Well, sometimes archers have kind of weird shield on close duel with knight, I think it works as third heart :D

 

This is entirely correct, but that doesn't change the fact that they're not balanced correctly right now.

The latest update really screwed with Archers' game plan. They're supposed to be a ranged class, but their range got reduced from Alpha to Beta, so they get in close in order to deal damage, but the new overcharge takes so long to prepare that Knights easily just walk right up while Archers are charging it and OHKO them. The only solution seems to be to get somewhat close and use regular full-charge shots, but those are easily blocked, and even if you DO manage to hit, it deals a measly ONE heart. Not even worth it.

The grappling hook was an attempt to allow Archers to move quickly and escape, but it doesn't always do the job... especially since Knights are still incredibly fast, high damage dealing tanks that come equipped with bombs... and a metal sheet that lets them fly.

I think it's clear which class has the upper hand in the game right now.

 

Support... support... nope... doesn't ring a bell. Last I read there doesn't seem that anyone knows for sure what kind of role the archer officially has and from reading some older posts back in pre-alpha archers seemed to be the main damage dealers while knights were the guys that supported them. Funny how things stood back there eh? That was before the archer got nerfed so badly that the only thing it was good for was support (and even at that it's bad) and knights got so buffed that they became the back-bone of the army.

The only reason I see people calling archers as support is because they're not good for anything else, but once they get a small buff that makes them catch up to knights, every damn knight player starts to whine. "They're support! They shouldn't do that much damage! Yeah, keep them useless, what do I care? I don't play the class anyway!"

And why shouldn't they do that much damage? Knights can one shot archers right now. Isn't that a bit much? Bombs can instant kill them now. Does anyone care? Nope. Knight players don't give a fuck. Knights can shield every attack launched by an archer. Three consecutive arrows fired at a knight? Pfff, no problem. A barrage of ten arrows launched at 1 knight? Knight's shield doesn't give a fuck.


*sigh* I'm not saying to make the archer OP but I'm sick and tired of seeing players use the excuse that it's a bloody support class when it doesn't even have a defined role in the damn game.

I rather see the archer end up on equal footing with a knight in terms of tools so when an archer and a knight meet on the field, it can go either way depending on the skill of the players. I find that more fair and skill based than having knights own archers every time simply because knights have a considerable advantage over them in terms of health, damage, tools or something else.

 

realian, i totally agree this, i mean, like i already said, i love to play as archer... and.. who just want to support a mate which plays as knight? thats so boring! knights are strong enough! they can do their own job! and, another point is too, if 2 knights are fighting against each other, they move so fast, and its very hard to get the enemy with your arrows
( of course with the legolas it will maybe hit 1 or 2.. ) but thats so hard, and if you get the enemy, it does just 1 hearth damage...

i dont like to support mates ( of course if i play with friend i help them, but just because i like them.. )
if you ask me, the half of the team goes knight or archer in the building time and is fucking around,... and they want my support? no thanks...
i want the archer to become equal to the knight again, support mates is boring, doin his job alone is much more fun ( ofcourse if you play with a pro like paul : D its much fun to support him or to go knight and slaugther the enemys >:3 but i really dont wanna play with mates i havent ever seen...
and it would really help if the old damaging system would come back, that the archer has some more chances against a knight in.. something like middlerange too.. and like realian said , the old trick with falling from a tree while the bow is loaded.. then the knight stuns and he gets a nice arrow between his eyes... would make much more fun to pwn em alone

 

I see that they gave archers a grappling hook, but I'm like, why the hell they don't add machineguns, chainsaws, wings, atom bomb and etc. only for archers. If it's so fucked up, why not fucking it up even more? I don't really know what they are thinking, but I really think that they should try to stick more onto the real fun not so called 'balance'.

 

The problem I find with the grappling hook is that it's now just about impossible to build a tower that can't be climbed by the Archers. They can just waltz in and start shooting defenceless Builders in what would normally be considered "safe" territory.

 

Overhangs.

 

Simple bridge overhangs paired with spikes go a long way to stop archers and wallclimbing knights from getting up towers.

I personally think that fully charged arrows causing momentary shield drop, like in classic, would be a good step toward balance. It makes archers better at supporting knights, and makes packs of skilled archers a force to be reckoned with. This would require the removal of the Legolas shot, as it would be ridiculously overpowered. I propose that shield drop be added and the overcharge shot changed into a long range sniper shot that does two hearts of damage.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the overhangs

 

Nope, they can cling onto the underside and swing right over the top of them. Even tried making them out of upside-down bridge so they'd fall through, but they still manage to get past.

 

I feel like people keep complaining because they think knights are too op. The problem i see is this:

Archers need one 3 hearts to survive a slash. A double slash SHOULD kill them. a bomb head on SHOULD kill them.

I think archers should get an addition on to their range but nothing even near what it used to be. I do see that archers need to get close right now and that is the main reason for their demise.

I think the legolas shot should be only you letting go of the mouse button once its charged and then the three arrows release. Right now its too hard to aim the shots correctly with the shaking happening with each click. I feel archers shouldn't be able to shoot three special arrows for obvious reasons.

Im not sure what changes need to be made with the grappling hook but i do know it needs to be nerfed and buffed at the same time. something to allow archers to get out of harms way but also ends up stopping them from climbing every tower imaginable.

Currently a stun system being added to a charged shot which does 2 damage seems op. the system im talking about is the one in the beginning where the archer shot you and your shield lowered for 2 seconds making you useless to any damage. if the classic stun system was added to charged shots then it would be fine because your shield would be lowered for a very quick less than second amount of time allowing any knight to hit you successfully as long as they were in the engagement currently. Maybe take away the legolas shot and add in this power shot in place of it. It makes much more sense in the long run and allows archers to do whatever they can to be a good archer. Here is what im going to say about how archers should match up to knights.

They should by no means at all be able to take on a knight alone in a 1v1 situation. If the archer wins in that situation then the knight was dumb enough to let the archer actually get shots off on him. in a 1v2 situation 2 archers with just as much skill as the knight comparatively should be able to kill the knight, in a 1v2 situation with 1 archer and one knight against another knight as long as the 1 knight alone has more skill and experience in fighting than the knight with the archer than the one knight should win. Im not factoring in bombs because its an rtdm situation.

In the end it comes down to archers needing help to kill their opponent simply because they are an archer and really shouldn't be able to kill a knight easily with cheap tricks and such. If you think that its boring to play as archer then your probably right because it is a boring class. you cant fly or engage in melee combat like knights can. you cant sustain damage like knights can. you cant win a game alone like knights can. As long as these changes are made to the archer and nothing more i would be happy at that point.

The fact of the matter is that with these changes a team of only knights and builders have a low chance of winning against a team of knights archers and builders and thats how it should be in the long run.
//Edit by FBB: Added line breaks.

 

Three words: spikes, spikes and spikes.

Overhang with spikes under them? Even better


Just place spikes on the side of towers and archers will be dead in no time. Hell, even an archer on top of your tower can be taken out by your own archers. Want something really nasty? Get a pro knight to bomb jump over your tower, make his way in to your hall and slaughter everyone in there and win he game by shouting "GG".

Now THAT is a real threat.

Plus... it's war... there's no such thing as a 'safe zone' except for the building phase and that's it.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2013, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2013 ---

News flash, knights are the closest thing to OP on KAG. I can't even stress how many times I've been able to bomb jump over towers, kill everyone in the hall and win the game. The knight has so many possibilities and tools that it's stupid how much of the game you can win due to just ONE pro knight. Does anyone consider being able to do that OP? Nope.

Can builders and archers even reach that close of an efficiency?

Builder? Yeah, kinda, a good builder can build awesome structures that last while a pro battle builder can breach an enemy defense with ease. But! A battle builder needs support in the form of knights or else he is dead.

Archers? Yeah, no. You'd be lucky if you could kill a knight with 2 other archers backing you up.


Also, please explain why, just ~why~ and I do stress the word, should a knight ALWAYS be able to kill an archer in a 1v1? That doesn't seem fair to me. Why shouldn't each have equal chances to win based on the player's skills and not based on each classes' abilities? What are we aiming for here? Realism? Yeah, if that was the case bomb jumping wouldn't exist, knights would be slow as fuck and would swim like rocks.

"In the end it comes down to archers needing help to kill their opponent simply because they are an archer and really shouldn't be able to kill a knight easily with cheap tricks and such."

Thank you. That pretty much sums up the mentality of most knight players.

Archers should NEVER win a 1v1 against a knight. It doesn't matter if you are a pro archer because as long as the knight isn't a complete dumb ass then the archer should lose, every time. Yes, that mentality makes sense now. Why you ask?

Simple It all makes sense now Because they are archers Archers are the bane of existence! They are the monsters under your bed that must always be nerfed and lose to knights unless the knight in question is a complete moron Otherwise, archers will do unspeakable things to you if they should ever be given a fair chance.

Fear the archer! Nerf the archer! Hate the archer!

We are archers... we are evil incarnate.

 

dude... if you look a little more into what i said than you would understand what i was getting at.

i want the archer to be buffed because they are nerfed in my opinion right now and need to be stronger. i want archers to at least put up a fight but not be so strong that they pose an immediate threat to knights. It wouldnt make sense to make them that strong...

If you were good enough then you would use your grapling hook to save yourself. yea get away from that knight but if you get shot by another archer dont complain about being underpowered. if your an archer and your team fails to push the enemy back then your now backed into a wall with nowhere to go. knights should not be frightened to go to you just to attempt to kill you unless they have bombs.

You over reacted to my post and immediately assumed i was saying NERF THE FUCKING ARCHRS NAOW DEVS PLZ. no that is not my intent at all... not even close in fact. please next time read what people say before you go on a rant and put words in their mouths because to be quite honest it was uncalled for.
//Edit by FBB: Again, edited for readability.

 

Well, other than arrow damage, and range being an issue...
[Also, use arrows if you want to climb towers, or whatever, they are very reliable, but fall prey to platforms and door]

Directional platforms block all arrows regardless of their orientation.
[I need a confirmation if the directional platforms block anything else regardless of orientation]
This may be due to lag, but it seems fire arrows seemed to be nerfed, and have become unreliable.
This may be an issue with lingering code from knives, but grapple hooks, and generally holding right click destroys nearby arrows, which makes arrow climbing a huge hassle.
[It would be pretty neat if arrow laddering and grappling were more of synergistic combo, instead of a complete one-sided affair, especially since arrows are more common]

Other than that, I still find stuns to be rare, even with the new stun system, even with the multishot/draw/etc.
[I was able to weather several archers doing nothing but multi shots, long enough to kill them, or get flung across the map because the server finally realizes I have about 7 arrows' worth of knock back on me, because of server lag, from combat, construction, and several dozen arrows]

And I still think archers should still have a fair chance against a knight, but not an equal chance.
[It's their choice to do something other than shield-stab, but potshots, aka cheap shots, were the main reason why archers could do damage in the first place, since the shield is pretty much, and still is, an Aegis]

 

New here so not much educated input, but I would think an interesting way to enhance the archer while maintaining the theme and without stepping on the toes of the other class (likewise while compensating for lag) might be a sort of "light trap".

By powering up a shot and launching it directly into the ground below you, the shaft is buried half way. Any enemy that runs directly over the shaft of the arrow is stunned, staggered if they are committing an action. IE running over as normal gives you the same kind of effect as a knight overcharging his sword, a brief moment where you can't react and are slowed down.

Alternatively, if you are carrying something, blocking, attacking, etc you will actually trip and fall.
Could have a lot of useful applications, from simple things like getting away from a charging knight, to stumbling people into traps (They stumble right before they would normally jump and in they go!) to causing people to fumble objects like kegs.


Along with a slight damage boost (maybe .5 - 1.5 for normal shot. 2 for fully charged, 1.5 for legolas shots) some method of hindering the mobility of others would round out the class nicely.

 

The stumbling sounds like a guaranteed stun/stagger on proxim to an arrow.
This suggestion sounds incredibly exploitable, to the extent that this is probably going to be the sole use for the class, and downright greif-worthy if it also affects teammates. [or you, for that matter]
Other than that, I have concern for differentiating obliquely placed arrows, that are meant for arrow climbing.

The damage buff seems nice, it involves numbers.
And archers are pretty damn slow, and have little range [except underwater, comparatively], as it is.

 

I think I understood well enough honestly: archers should be balanced but not enough to pose an immediate threat to knights and from what you wrote I guess you mean that they shouldn't have the slightest chance to win a 1v1 versus a knight. Even if both players are skilled, the knight should win simply because knights are better than archers. And the only reason a knight should lose to an archer is if the knight was dumb as bricks to let himself get shot, correct?

"They should by no means at all be able to take on a knight alone in a 1v1 situation. If the archer wins in that situation then the knight was dumb enough to let the archer actually get shots off on him."

Isn't that what you meant? Or do you also believe that archers should have equal chance in winning a 1v1 encounter versus a decent knight (not a dumb knight) and win if the archer is more skilled than the knight? Doesn't that sound fair? Sounds fair to me if the outcome of the fight is based on player skill without resorting to empowering one class (either of the two so they have a huge advantage over the other) or having a huge skill gap between the two players (ex: pro vs noob match).

Thing is... I didn't quote the other parts because I agree with some of them (archers should get buffed, yes, I agree with that) and the rest I probably don't care... what I did quote was what you wrote in your own words.

I did not put anything in your mouth, I simply made an amusing parody of how most people seem to picture the archer: a class that should be 'balanced' but by balance people seem to understand that the archer should always lose 1v1 against a knight, simply because the knight has a significant advantage over the archer in the form of more health, more damage, better tools. A class that should be set as support (for whatever reason) simply because... it's an archer, and for no other valid reason.

I would advice you to stop taking things so personal, you may consider my words uncalled for but in truth I just pointed out what you typed because it seems to pretty much express most people's opinion about archers: "They're support! Knights should own them in a 1v1!"

And my question still stands.... why? Why should a 1v1 between an archer and a knight mean an automatic failure to the archer unless the knight is dumb as sh*t?

Give me a valid reason people.

Anyone? :(

 

As FBB put it, Archers take on the mantle of "Speedster", "Glass Cannon" or "Ranged Combatant" [a la tvtropes], that is, they lose the ability to withstand damage and practical melee/close-range, but can deal damage at a range, and move fast.

I don't know where support comes from, but it doesn't adequately pin down what an archer is, especially in the prior updates, where they ended up being more of a hassle to deal with, than they are now; and neither does saying a knight is purely offense, they are pure shock and awe, but also master at melee, and at times, impossible to kill with their god damn shield.
[To extend the rhetoric, builders aren't purely defense, they are more support, and structure-related]
The paradigm of the knight, is the "Lightning Bruiser", continuing from what FBB said, they are entirely dangerous, durable, and fast, especially since they are have the most powerful defense, weapon, but to use them, they have to choose between range-damage, for health, this should be their critical weakness- even if it means they are pretty much immune to most things, but other knights, kegs, and siege engines. I'm alright with it.
I was alright with it, because the way to fight to actually fight an archer was to counter with buildings [countered with special ammo], other archers, or getting in close, to fight. I was alright with the extreme power difference between the archer, and knight in the prior update. Half the time I could still damage, or kill the knight.
It wasn't by mini stunning with fully charged arrows, it is as unreliable as stunning is now.
I did it by simply dancing around the knight, and taking potshots, causing 1-1.5h reliably, added with the fear of 3h backstab [even if backstabs were more unreliable than stuns], giving the knight more of a reason to put down their shield, it was pretty much the epitome of archer and knight combat. Still heavily tilted in favor of the knight, but I got to the point that I could make them not battle worthy.
Potshots are pretty much the reason why archers could be considered an aggressor, but still be held in check at close ranges by a knight. It made the archers feel even with the knights, even if they are built to have a clear gap.
[I dare say they were actually a defining feature of the archer class, and archer combat]

As it stands now, potshots are entirely not worth it since they do little damage. Archers can't last more than one hit in the extreme, further reducing the worth of actually going out into the field.
And their most powerful attack is the legolas shot with does little more than knock back most of the time.
Archers are less of a threat to builders, since they take less damage from direct fire, and can build a directional platform, or a wall to completely staunch their combat angle [ability/reliability].

So as far as an archer stands, they need a heavy advantage, or completely spam arrows until a knight is stunned or rely on someone else to carry the battle for them.
And as a result, they camp on every angle a knight, or builder can't directly strike them down in.
They can't use directional platforms as shields, their range is noticeably decreased, and fire arrows are unreliable, so what damage are they whom, other than workshops, and siege engines, since they got a buff specifically in that area.
[Not much use when you can't shoot that far, or get close to these structures with such little health, and no threat to the defender/user]



I can't put it down, correctly, but the Legolas Shot, Multi Draw, Multi Shot is impractical in any setting that isn't completely safe. No matter what distance you start charging at, three seconds is plenty time for a knight to get within bomb or melee range.
It is because of the legolas shot, compounded with range and damage nerfs, that pretty much screams "camping" from the get go.
What happened to being the ranged class, that could deal a respectable amount of damage, and survive because of their speed. The class that could fall back on agility, and 1.5 heart damage, when they have gotten close to a knight, or builder.

I don't know, the archers class has always been poorly defined, but now we have something that is completely removed from what it was just a few days ago, and is now weaker than a builder in combat even in their element, which is ranged.