Kag Beta classes are too independent/agile

I feel like kag should be a game that strongly encourages teamwork, and that the independence and agility of classes really undermines this. It's gotten even worse, with the wall-running and grappling mechanics recently released. These changes continue to make fortifications less and less useful, removing the need for organized sieges. In kag's current state, there is little to no use for builders on the front lines, as an extra fighter would be much more useful than an easily scalable wall. This degrades kag from a game about teamwork and sieging castles to a glorified tdm. I think that if all the classes were slower, unable to jump as high, and the grappling hook was removed, structures, sieging, and teamwork would become much more meaningful.

 

Well then, outline the changes you want to make within a definite manner.

For an added combatant, buff the archers, so we can revive the "ranged speedster" vs "lightning bruiser" paradigm between Archers and Knights.

It seems you haven't seen the power of a rushing builder, or a siege-towering builder.

 

A wall _will_ in fact stop a knight or archer. Even an army of knights and archers. Even if a keg is used you can easily repair quickly as long as you don't get gibbed.

 

I think bomb jumping needs to be toned down.

 

Archers are far from independent, and it pretty much entailed heavy nerfs.

All I can see them as, is extra water water bombs.

 

To clear things up, I refer to the "independence" of a class in this thread as its ability to move and scale obstacles independently. This latest set of changes means that only large, well designed structures are impactful, making the only purpose of builders on the front lines is taking down big structures. The whole point of wood blocks is to provide quick defences, which are now meaningless.

 

Then your main issue is with bomb jumping knights, since archers can't get around a 4-tile directional platform overhang.

 

Yes, bomb jumping knights are maybe the worst problem, as they can circumvent even large structures, but that's not the only problem. I feel like front-line rush structures are a healthy and good part of this game, but the wall running and grappling additions have really nerfed these into oblivion. A builder on the front lines doesn't have time for a 4-tile overhang, and a structure like that would be easily destroyed even if he did have the time. I'm saying that structures themselves have been nerfed, and it's a very unhealthy direction for the game.

 

Then say it upfront "Because of Bomb Jumping, Wallrunning, and Grappling, Midland Fortifications are kinda piss", as it stands, the thread looked like a complaint about classes being too distinct, and able to move around.

Anyways, we are dealing with a very lop-sided tripartite issue.
Landscaping Builders [Often Undersupplied, and Undermanned]
Doom Squad Knights [Can pretty much do anything, or go anywhere]
Whelp Archers [Unviable as a Class, and Combat, since their redeeming quality is being "Extra Bombs"]

 

Fair enough. I agree that knights are too powerful right now, and that archers need to be buffed and fixed. The thing is, it's not just specific instances that need fixing, it's an unhealthy trend that's been going on for a while, a trend of faster-paced action and movement that is unbecoming of a strategy-oriented game (which in my opinion KAG currently isn't, but maybe I just suck), but makes sense for tdm. Maybe classes should be modified for tdm, and slower in war, I'm not sure. I just feel that the strategy elements need to be reaffirmed in KAG.

 

As far as strategy goes, it's a meta- concept in terms of current game play.
[We can share notes about good strategy somewhere else]

..But when it comes to TTH, I'd say it's pretty limited because outposts are pretty much hard limited.
[And by extension where to build]
Anyways, I'm pretty much rosy-eyed from the older concept art from back in the day, and the remaining images/clips of the old WAR mode, and how it was ironically dubbed as restricting.

 

This is because people don't work together. I can't remember the last time I've seen an organized siege. In classic, games were generally a stream of knight hammering at the vertical doors of the enemy tower for a while until a a builder gets tired and bothers to walk out and place a ladder. No matter how much you yell at them, some people won't listen. I'm guessing a lot of people don't even look at the chat. If it becomes a game where you need strategy to win and classes need to work together to win, it's going to be a hell of stalemates. No matter what you do, people aren't going to listen to random people online telling them what to do.

 

I don't see archers with there grapple a problem. So yea they can climb a tower. Wait let's look at how they climb it, the grapple shoots up an hangs the archer in the air. During that process the archer has a chance if be killex by a ground knight. As the archer makes his way up the tower he/she could be raped by other archers or a bomb. Finnaly the archer made it to the top; the only thing now is to shoot him self up. While he/she doing this Mr. Trololol builder can pickaxe him to death. There is plenw of chances to kill a archer while they scale towers. Even if they do make it there chance of survival is little to none. Enemies everywhere and that 2 hearts won't last long.

The real problem is the knight class. There little mac giver bastards that get in every thing, wreck everthing, and are just un balanced. Bomb jumb is too high(or too easy.) There climb hight is too high. Speed is too high(compared to other classes). I do agree tth is just elongated tdm, but I hate that gm compared to the old war anyways.

 

I'll have to agree with Jlordo on this one. Even if every class would have their movement restricted, I don't think it would help improve team work unless people:

1. wish to work together
2. listen to advice
3. remain open minded regarding other ideas besides their own
4. have the means to quickly give orders and execute them (for optimum efficiency voice chat would preferred over typing)

Even so, I can't imagine that teamwork in KAG would lead to anything overly complicated. As Jlordo mentioned, it only takes one bored builder to put his foot down and place ladders up for the half a dozen knights that were slashing like crazy at the base of the enemy's tower. From there on, the roles are simple: the knights kill everything in their path and defend the builder while the builder helps them advance further through the battlefield and that pretty much sums up teamwork in KAG.

Usually, you can tell easily enough what a person is trying to do and how to best back them up; see a guy running with a keg on his back? Defend him! Noticed your teammate carrying a cata towards that tower? Help defend him!

I think the most important thing is to remember that sticking to one plan/idea is never a good thing and that you must remain flexible depending on how the battle commences and if you ever see a teammate doing a keg run or trying to position a cata, help them out!

Mind you! A group of like-minded players that team up and use voice chat to coordinate their actions could prove a potent force on the battlefield but I'd consider such a sight quite rare indeed.

 

I still think it's worth a shot. KAG now doesn't require much teamwork, so people don't exhibit much. If you really needed to work together to win, I think people would. I'm not saying it would work for sure, I'm saying it's worth a shot compared to where the game is headed at the moment.

 

I sort of third JLordo. Using teamwork in KAG does already result in way better results than solo hack'n'slash (unless you are good enough to obliterate entire enemy teams), but the thing is that people just are too stupid to use any teamwork. They can't even get two crates together to extract a warboat + catapult combo, it has to be one seasoned player to do it.

I think it's partially because of KAG's graphics, as it seems like a fun arcadey kid game, resulting in a young playerbase. And young people are stupid.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with archers being able to grapple over things as they can't really do much even if they get over your tower, unless you were dumb enough not to build a wall around your hall. The classes should also remain somewhat independent, because as mentioned above, if the game would require a lot of teamwork, it would be mainly frustrating and lead to stalemates, largely due to the playerbase's inability to comprehend with the visual feedback they get from the monitor, or using any logic in their decision-making at all.

Knights however are a bit too much the jack-of-all-trades atm, as they can get over or through almost any structure without the help of the other classes. At the same time builders are too vulnerable in the front lines, so they can't often support their team with ladders or generally be much use in the heat of battle. Small frontline towers are still useful, but they become efficient only in lategame, when most of the terrain is worn out.

The bottom line: Knights shouldn't be able to walljump or wallrun. Why? Because they already have bombs to get them to places. Bombjumping also isn't as easy as holding two keys, so it means that the plebenian knights will have to bear with a supporting builder, while the noblemen can fly off to the skies. Knights have too much mobility. Removing the wallrun ability would balance them out well enough, meaning that they would have to rely on builders a bit to wreak havoc. And frontline building would be more meaningful.

The suggestion of builders with 4 hearts, twice the amount of the timelord, has also been running around in the community. I personally don't like it, because it means that the archers wouldn't be a threat to them at all. A few tiny changes, unrelated to the builder's core as a class, would make them much more survivable in the frontlines imho.
1) Exiting a crate doesn't destroy it. This means that the builders could use the crates as a more persistent cover against archer fire and bombs, and would be a nice, slightly hilarious gimmick overall.
2) Ability to place blocks while carrying things. This supports the whole crate builder idea, as they wouldn't have to throw the crate away while laddering their team up.

With these changes, knights would be slightly more relient with builders, and builders would be able to support them without dying every 2 seconds. Thoughts?

Oh by the way, boats should also be given some thought. In the early days boats were a necessity, but tada-da-da it led to stalemates, obviously, since it required too much teamwork to use them effectively. Now boats aren't that useful at all. I'm not sure how they should be changed. But using them should be more beneficial than just swimming over to the enemy, at least. I haven't read through this post so expect a lot of spelling mistakes, and no tl;dr.

 

Mirror's Edge, how it feels for me at the moment in terms of knights and this ridiculous slash range they have. Archers are really enjoyable now but just really weak, also grappling hook is not bad as people say it is, it just takes a bit of thinking because you can pester enemy team and make them mad, also hooking up to the ceilings, using stun water arrow then stomping your foes feels really good.

 

I agree! I suppose that my original idea was a bit extreme. All we really need is a few nerfs to extreme mobility. Also, mirror's edge is a FANTASTIC game. Can't believe I never realized that archers were timelords before.

 

I totally agree that the wall running for knights should be dropped or at least reduced. At the moment if you wall run and also raise your shield high in the air tapping 'w' as fast as you can, I can guarantee you that you'll get over all small-to-mid sized towers.

The only possible hindrance at the moment for this is to place spike traps on stone towers. That especially prevents archers from climbing them / hooking at them etc.

 

this is merely a glitch with the knight wall running. bomb jump is fine where it is and its honestly the teams fault if a knight gets in via bomb jump. you should have seen such a thing coming and prepared by making the wall higher. however super skilled knight can bomb jump onto a wall and crawl up as much as they can and then bomb jump again off of the tower onto the top. this takes skill and lag often ruins such a stunt but can be very rewarding and fun to do :3