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arrow can stun a slash

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Landoo2, Oct 20, 2013.

  1. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    hello mates,
    im not sure if the title of this says it correctly, i didnt know how to explain it in short..

    so whats pissing me off, is when i load a tripple shot, its ready and i want to shot a knight, the knight slashs the first arrow, and then i get a slash so im dead, why are knights able to slash arrows in the air? why couldnt it be possible, if a knight loads his slash, and gets shooten by an archer, that his sword ''knocks back'' so that he cant hit anymore? that would just be fair, because knights already can slash arrows, why cant arrows stun a knights sword?
    (sorry for my bad expression, im sorry for it, but i hope you got what i mainly mean)
     
  2. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Bison Rider

    Messages:
    134
    YES.
    It irritates me so much.
    When you have a triple shot loaded and... they... slash the arrows out of the air!?
    It's utterly ridiculous.
    just remove it:QQ:
     
    Sgnt_Sneeky-Pants likes this.
  3. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    Because if a knight is skilled enough he can actually get past 2 archers spamming legolas shots at him at the same time. It gets incredibly tricky to do, and it can differentiate a decent knight from an experienced knight.

    @FuzzyBlueBaron
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
    Apronymous likes this.
  4. FearSome

    FearSome Haxor

    Messages:
    16
    no, just no!!! Archers are OP enough already.... And what would happen in the battlefield???
    1archer, 1knight vs 1knight = :skull: And in every game there's atleast 5 archers shooting arrows from the tower... + the damn legolas shot ... 3*5 = 15 So you hove to dodge 15 arrows while you're fighting an enemy knight - good luck on surviving, might as well just run away, because that's the only thing you can do....!
     
  5. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Bison Rider

    Messages:
    134
    I'm sorry, my earlier post didn't really get the point across. That's my fault.

    This is my problem with slashes destroying arrows:
    It is an offense and a defense at the same time. The one general rule of slashes is that while slashing, the knight should be defensively weak.
    with double slash, a knight can protect themselves and kill the archer at the same time. Blocking arrows is what the shield is for.

    FearSome, archers are not OP, you are seriously bias if you think that. You cannot predict an encounter with math. math does not factor in skill, nor human stupidity.

    You're right, 5 archers legolas shooting from a tower would be quite deadly. (Although you can shoot arrows faster without the legolas shot.) But think of it this way:
    If your enemy has five archers on top a castle, that is five knights they don't have fighting on the front lines.
    just say if all those archers converted to knights, they would pose a much greater threat.
     
  6. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    But it actually doesn't have anything to do with skill. Most of the time it's just a random occurrence where the knight got lucky. Worst of all, even jabs can cancel arrows just as easily as slashes can. It's just an unintuitive feature.
     
    Sir_Walter likes this.
  7. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    I wouldn't mind if jabs destroying arrows was removed, but have you actually tried assaulting bases in CTF as a knight? More than half the time an archer can keep me at bay because they can constantly hit me as I try to scale the wall or even bomb jump. I've never been held in bases by knights, but even single archers have killed me when I had the flag because of their constant barraging. Archers are one of the main things that kill me in knight vs knight combat because I can't shield as fast as I can slash.

    @FuzzyBlueBaron
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
    Apronymous likes this.
  8. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    i dont know, but if you guys think that archers are op,... i just cant get it, its so unlogically, a knight, with a 30 kg armor, can climb a 9 blocks high tower....? and, they are as fast as an archer without any special weight on it?
    i dont get how you guys think knights could have any disadvantages, oh my god, 5 enemy archer, why do you piss of that you have no chance? do you think the sherriff would have had a chance against 5 robin hoods? and your nice thing with knight+archer against a knight =:skull:, god damn, its just smarter to fight in a team that going solo, all that show offs, that think they would be pros..
     
    16th likes this.
  9. FearSome

    FearSome Haxor

    Messages:
    16
    Welp... 5 robin hoods... no one could survive, but i just can't disagree with "going on solo" It's a team based game! I just have some hate for archers... probably because i'm a noob... :spam::teabag::QQ:
     
  10. Raelian

    Raelian Bison Rider

    Messages:
    232
    Considering how fast it is to charge a slash compared to a charged shot (not even gonna suggest a triple shot) I'd go for removing the arrow slashing mid air, I've found myself countless times in front of a knight, releasing an arrow only to have it slashed mid air and the knight jumping on my ass afterwards as a good old sword rape ensued. :eek:

    I admit that it's a 'cool' feature when you think about it but it doesn't seems to happen more out of dumb luck than skills given how quickly people can charge a slash.
     
  11. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Sorry guys, but I have to disagree with being removing slashing arrows. Archers are meant for supporting their fellow knights, not being armies. They shoot from the back while the friendly knights work hard to make the other knights drop their shields, allowing the archers to strike from afar. This was the original argument from the thread:
    First off, You should have shot sooner to keep him away from you. An archer that knows when to shoot is more intimidating to a knight than an archer spamming shots. Also, archers should learn not to get in slash range of a knight. I can't think of many scenarios where the archer walks away from that. There are no archer one-man armies here. Know your distance and your timing, and you can easily avoid this problem.

    Also, if you're worried about not being able to do anything against knights, Focus on shooting bomb jumpers. They leave their guard down while flying and are very vulnerable to arrows. Also, the knockback from arrows can stop them from going that one extra block and you will end up saving half your team.

    Why removing this would suck for knights:
    have you seen the number of arrows flying around during a game on a full server? A team of archers could back up one single knight on one team, and as soon as anyone drops their shield to attack him, he would get a face full of arrows, without a chance to slash the knight because arrows would stop his slash, and if there are at least 4 good archers and one knight working together, that team will steamroll everything without much competition.
     
    Yagger likes this.
  12. Raelian

    Raelian Bison Rider

    Messages:
    232
    I really don't understand how winning in a 1v1 (as an archer) would make the archer a "one man army". Even if arrow slashing is removed it would, at best, give them the chance to get a shot in a 1v1 encounter vs a knight. Even so, it would require precise timing and having to be in slashing range to perform it accurately, which is a very risky maneuvers. If you want to see a one man army, check the knight.

    Also I'm just gonna add how absurd this is because archers can't hit knights when they shield, they also can't hit them when they slash, so the only times they can hit them is when the knight is either stunned or he/she is unaware of the archer, which results in a very small window of opportunity for getting a hit in.

    Even if the archer is supposed to be a support class, it's pretty damn shitty for the archer to only be able to hit a knight when he's unaware or stunned, reason why I suspect most archers just start spamming arrows in the middle of a knight fight.

    As for the 4 archers and one good knight team steam rolling everything, c'mon lets be serious for a moment here. Against a team of 5 knights that lone knight will get his ass owned fairly quickly, even with 4 archers backing him up, unless those archers are crazy to stick in melee range (which I doubt) to get the stun from their shots, the 5 man knight army will just jump the lone knight, kill him horribly then shield and move towards the archers unhindered.

    Seriously though, isn't it enough that knights can shield against arrows? Do they really have to be able to slash arrows mid air aswell? Isn't that a bit OP how the knight's versatility keeps minimizing the archer's already small windows of opportunity for getting decent shots in? Has the archer truly degraded to a simple watchmen that tries to fend off the castle against bomb jumpers? I mean, if that's the only reason I should take an archer then I'm better off getting a knight and just slashing the guy when he gets close since I might even kill him off and don't risk dying so quickly as an archer if he still gets through.
     
  13. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    I beg to differ.

    ...

    Okay, I'm not THAT good, but there ARE a lot of situations in which I've injured and/or killed Knights by timing my triple shot perfectly and blasting them in the face with it.

    Reason I can't consider myself a one-man-army is because of the fact that Knights can slash arrows out of the air, causing me to get killed 50% of the time.

    I don't mind that, though. My issue is the triple shot itself.
    Archers are a ranged class, and yet, because of the new triple shot, their best damage-dealing opportunities actually arise when attacking a single Knight at melee range. Plus it makes them spammier and more annoying in general....

    Doesn't make sense to me, honestly.
     
    Piano, paradoxicalenigma and Mazey like this.
  14. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    People complaining that Archers should be better are seriously just bad archers (and any Knight who says Archers are OP is a bad knight as well).

    If you are going to play a campy archer who snipes from a distance, then learn to time your shots better and don't go around spamming Legolas Shot. FYI, there's a window after a slash where knights can't shield and since slash > jabbing for skilled knights, learn to use that to your advantage. Addtionally you could just buy 1 water bomb and then regular arrows, charge up to Legolas Shot, release the water bomb and then spam 2 more arrows. That's 2 hearts of UNBLOCKABLE damage and it's easy to do. It just simply costs coins. Anyways, if you are going to be camping from a safe distance, then you simply shouldn't be allowed to attack whenever you want since basically you are saying you want to play support. In that case learn your timings.

    If you want to play CQC, then learn to use Legolas Shot + Grapple. First Shot breaks shield, 2nd and 3rd shot damage. End result is the same as the Water + Regular shot from above, but with just regular arrows. Then just use your grapple to get away. Alternatively if you are near trees, you can just grapple around, stomp (which breaks shield) and then shot a fully charged (not Overcharged Legolas Shot) in their face and do 1 heart of damage every time. Also, you only have 2 hearts; don't go around trying to take on 2+ knights when they can 1 hit ko you. If you are, you aren't using your strengths to your advantage (which are superior close range mobility and basically free just out of knight's range attacks). There are other ways you can take advantage of CQC archers, but that'd take too long to explain here.

    If you are going to be attacking from a safe, comfortable, out range of every other classes' attack, you should at least be willing to learn how to time your attacks if you want to support other people. If you want to take a more proactive approach and be CQC, use your mobility to your advantage. Just take note that you have an advantage only in close and long range. Knights are superior in mid range since they have bombs, while archers lose both their shield breaking abilities at mid range and their safety net that the larger distance provides. Archer class is simply a harder class to master than Knight class.
     
    Darksteel, Piano, Mazey and 2 others like this.
  15. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    As Kouji said, learn your timings. If you have a legolas shot ready to fire, you don't have to fire them all 1 after another. You can change the repetition of the arrows just by waiting half a second each time rather than doing them all right after each other. It is easy to do and works like a charm.
     
  16. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    • make paragraphs. or capital letters. or both please
    sorry kouji, but as i played with you, you were always playing a knight, and slaughtered the enemy archers, i thouged the devs wanted to make the classes easier to play, so in my opinion, why should a new player take the archer? you have to learn how to aim first, you wont get many kills and your kd will always be low, if you want a highone like i always do, you have to do solo, if your with a knight, he will always kill the enemy first, and really,... sniping or just spamming legolas from a save place is so boring! if i play KAB, i want to have action and fun, and not just always staying in the background.. i miss it from alpha, where i could get 3 knights as archer at a time, where i had a chance to stun their slashes, while they tried to slaughter me, but that was the only good chance too. so if you really want to be a good archer, in your opinion, you should go, support a knight, thats so boring. i always go solo, and thats like 10x more fun. but it isnt fun, if you have your legolas, and a knight comes, and loads his slash in a half second, you spam your legolas, but it doesnt do anything, the knight slashes the first, maybe the others do damage, but they dont push him away and SLING, your in 2 pieces, i really miss that archers were equal to knights, there you had a chance against them, and the only way i see, is to make the window of doing damage to a knight a bit bigger, because a knight needs one normal slash, a normal bomb, or just a freaking jab spam, an archer, has to hit him with 4 arrows! that means, 2 legolas shots from near distence, and if a knight can load his slash in a half second, its very hard to get him, because they are always jumping and so.. why isnt it like in the old storys of robin hood? one good aimed shot can kill a knight! maybe adding critical headshot! and kouji, if you think all archers that just want to have a little bigger chance in 1 vs 1 against a knight, they arent bad, they have a reason. ( i havent seen you playing archer that much, i always saw you playing knight, and in my opinion knights are just cruel, unintelligent slaughteres, which have a big advantage with their bombs..
     
  17. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    First off, no headshot mechanics please. I can see all the archers spamming arc-shots, the head is the only place those hit.

    Second, playing solo isn't nearly as fun as going up to the enemy with a part of your team, and I play knight. I've always had more fun knowing someone has my back, rather than being the only competent member of my team.

    Thirdly, We may be cruel, but we are intelligent. It takes a lot of skill to kill someone with a bomb considering other knights can block the explosion, other people can pick it up and throw it away, and archers can shoot the bombs away. Many a time has my bomb been rejected by an archer shooting it with his arrow.

    p.s. you may want to spell check and use better paragraph structure, I didn't enjoy breaking through your wall of text.
     
    Sir_Walter likes this.
  18. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    The only reason I'm not always archer is cause I do attempt to increase my skills in other classes. Right now, I'd consider myself a terrible knight that's average at most. So, basically just because you saw me in a game or two as knight doesn't mean it's the only class I play.

    As far as the whole "why should I play this class as a newb?" question goes: Not everyone likes being super proactive. This is why we have minecrafters in KAG in the first place. It's entirely based on personality. In some games, there's always the person who doesn't mind being a healer/priest even though they generally do less damage themselves because they simply like being support. Addtionally, someone might like to learn CQC archer as a challenge or something. It's based on playstyle

    As far as the whole "oh man archers are so useless now compared to classic" goes: No. One, classic archers were broken and op. 2 archers can stun an entire time trying to progress past a tower and they'd never win. You didn't even need skill. Archer wasn't as broken as builder, but it was still pretty broken. If you disagree with this, you aren't allowed to have an opinion in this matter (and any posts you make should be ignored) because it's a FACT.
    Two, I already explained to you a bit on how you can CQC. If you can't do it, get more practice. Practice against bots or something if doing it in multiplayer is too hard.
    Third, why is it okay to only being doing 1 damage per arrow? Because the damage you do can be unavoidable if you do it right, so LEARN TO DO IT RIGHT. FYI, full charged arrows at close ranged cause shield break + stun, and arrows that get stuck in a knight's body slow their movement on the ground. This makes it easier to just attack, pull away and then attack again. If you were a good archer, you'd know that.

    As far as the whole "let's add headshots and crits", wow is all I can say. It's like you know nothing about balancing a game. To me this simply further shows that you are bad since you want to rely on luck to get kills. Adding RNG to games will almost always lessen pure skill. That is also fact. The only exception would be if was being used to RNG determine cosmetic things or something similar.
     
    Piano and Auburn like this.
  19. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Ok ignoring all the other issues for a sec, show me video evidence of an archer destroying a team lol. I don't think archer can physically output enough damage to destroy a team, even if you land every hit perfectly. I know knights destroy ass, as I knight I destroy ass every day and see others do the same. I even have a whole pile of videos of me doing work as knight, even crippled with recording lag.

    I have never ever seen an archer come even close to what knights do on a daily basis.
     
  20. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    This.

    People look too much at the finer details and don't pay attention to the elephant in the room: Archers' damage output sucks royally compared to Knights'.