[928] The problem with bombjumping.

Here's the problem with bombjumping: If you make a tower less than 10 blocks (or more, I've seen bombjumpers jump over huge towers) it's useless.

So what's the problem with that? It helps defenders and hurts attackers!

Defenders already have a huge tower in place, that cannot be jumped over, but attackers dont.
Now, attackers cannot make their own forward base because it takes too long to make a tower that high and give it proper support. So attackers get no bed, no tunned, no supplies, and they have to walk a long distance to get to the front. Defenders on the other hand have all of that.

The end result is a stalemate, which happens in every game after big towers are built.

It should be easier to establish a forward base so that attackers can fight on an equal footing.

 

This should probably be in GD, since you really didn't suggest anything.

Anyways, I have never seen a main defensive tower that can't be jumped over. You can jump over 10 blocks with creative slash jumping and wall jumping. Ever try a triple bombjump or even a quad? Anyway, most stalemates happen because of shit teams. A decent team can easily set up a quick forward catapult or deliver a few kegs to knock down towers. The real problem is....there's a problem? I dunno perhaps another oldfag will yell at me and tell me I'm wrong, but the only real reason other than teams that stalemates are a problem is terrain-rape, but games shouldn't even last that long.

 

Not everyone can bomb jump, and even for those that do a bomb jump is the loss of 25% (or more) of your fire power to propel yourself alone into the heart of enemy territory. Bomb jumping looks fancy because bomb jumpers are more skilled than the average player and can often come in and slaughter teams but really you have to keep in mind that bomb jumping only a means of transportation, the slaughtering is coming from the fact that that one player, on their own, is better than your entire team. One semi competent knight can easily cockblock enemies trying to bomb jump in, as bomb jumping gives you a real positional disadvantage in which an enemy can capitalize on for a quick slash chain. This is really obvious in clan matches/gather matches where barring a few insane instances, bomb jumping is merely expensive suicide.

 

Contrary is one of those very few knights that can bomb jump into enemy territory alone and 8/10 come back with a flag(Haven't been to any clan matches so don't quote me on that), or take care of two cycles of enemy re-spawns. Bombjumping is kind of like grappling your way up a tower in sense, but it takes longer(depending on how skilled you are) and most of the time knights will slide their way down the outside of the tower and knock you off. I don't really think there's a problem with bomb-jumping - it's just part of the game at the end of the day. Builders have ladders. Knights have bombjumping. Archers have their grapple hooks. It just gives you one more thing to consider when setting up a defense.

 

Nonetheless, It saddens me to see the forward tower go. Back in classic, a simple 4 block wall could keep a knight or archer out, and that as good. It gave builders a presence on the battlefield, and made structures important. Now they're just scenery as you bomb-jump/grapple/wall-run over them. It made gameplay more directed, when you had to first take down the enemy forward base before attacking their stronghold. Nowadays, if a builder sets up a base with only 30 seconds(about how much you could expect), as soon as the enemy team comes back, they easily surmount it, take it, and destroy it. RIP

 

I would say wait till the steam release. Once KAG is distrubuted to them, an increase in skill will likely occur.

 

Bomb jumping is fine, takes some careful calculation and creativity to get into enemy base, but once you are there you can quickly dominate entire team, typical commando loadout for me always contains a mine to boobytrap trapdoors or walls above knight shop where it will give me access to their shop, from there I can get a keg and pretty much wreck the entire base while my whole team can sit and watch and hit their swords against stone walls and continue to be useless.

 

Keep in mind that you can easily notice a bomb being lit by the sound. Skilled archers can then try to disrupt the knight's bomb jump since he has to shield down. Then, once in the air, the shield is up, meaning any arrow flying front or below the knight will hit him, triple shot even knocking him away from the top of the tower. And as another mentioned, a knight can cockblock with a simple slash.

A tower cannot defend itself. No matter how tall or strong a tower is it can easily be overtaken. But even a small tower can withstand an attack if you defend it well. Besides, even if your forward tower gets raped in a second, you got coins from building the blocks! :)

 

This This This. KAG is all about using all classes to work together to win. It is all about teamwork. I used an analogy in another thread. The archer and knight are like a heavy and medic in TF2. The medic is weak without a knight to help him and the knight may be strong and can solo up to a point, but without a archer to support, you won't get far.

 

I find builders with 5(15 shots) buckets filled with water more problematic than bombjumping. Bomjumping is really fun, I think it should stay.

Its an iconic ability of the knight, take it away and we go back to the dark dark days many months ago where knights are weaker than they should be.

Bomb jumping isn't as op as it seems, only a couple of knights on a team are good enough to do it nowadays - while they can wreak havoc they aren't usually going to singlehandedly take down a well defended tower. Leave that to the guy afking with a keg in the doorways.

 

Knight doesn't need teammates lol. A strong knight can win games on their own- not only can they get far without archers, but archers can't even keep up as bomb jumping is much faster. Builders can't win a game on their own but they can just about completely stall one on their own. IMO archers should be brought to the same level of power as these other classes.

 

I agree.
The difference between Knights and Archers is not how high they can climb, but how well they can stand on their own.

Knights can bombjump into a base at a small cost (come on - what's a few bombs to someone who is a decent Knight?) and absolutely murder everyone singlehandedly, (if they're skilled) whereas an Archer can grapple up for free, but can't really do anything once they're there. A good Archer can take down one Knight by themselves... but only given the right terrain, and plenty of time to charge a triple shot. Against anything more than one guy, they're pretty much screwed.

Knights jump towers, and they decimate everything. Archers jump towers, they just get killed.

 

How awesome would it be if headstomping with an arrow knocked did double damage. And then you shoot legolas style at them.

Geti pls.

 

What you guys are saying is very much true, but isn't that how things should be? Knights decimate castles, archers support the knights and the workers support both. Its the way things are.

I'm not against giving the archer more tools though. It is very hard to evade knights, unless there's high ground to escape to with the hook. It might appease players to have a panic button, like a smoke bomb or something, to get out of trouble and not die so much all the time. Just, don't make them better at killing, since that's just not their thing. I'll admit feeling pretty useless as an archer most of the time if I don't have cash for special arrows. Archers are tactical, their tricks is their power.

 

Totally wrong, terrain-rape was actually pretty awesome on the old bacon servers. They had a minimum land height of like 10 blocks, no bedrock, were unlimited, and had no timer. Matches still wound up taking a few hours a piece, but that was just the nature of digging wide bottomless pits, pushing forward the bacon strips of bridges, and taking out the enemy's.

 

You seem to think that it's okay that Archers are only effective at removing siege engines and blowing holes in walls. Issue with that is we'd only need one or two Archers per team... and there are way more people that want to play Archer, I'm sorry.

Oh, and this...

... is a complete lie.

The issue is only compounded by the deep maps with low sky-limit... but I've seen Knights jump absolutely colossal towers by utilizing double bombjumps, and then proceed to decimate everyone inside.

You're good enough at Knight - ask yourself this: how often have you been completely unable to bombjump a defense? What percentage of towers you've gone up against have actually been tall enough to stop even your double bombjumps?

Also, even if the tower is too high, Knights, by themselves, can STILL bring it down by using bombs, kegs, or even drills. They're far from unable to get through towers without Archers. Only difference is that Archers can do it from a safer distance, and thus have slightly higher success rates (I say slightly because oftentimes, when I try to go on the offensive with a bomb arrow, I get killed by enemy Knights because my teammates don't seem to be aware of the fact that I'm squishy and need protection).

 

You assume that they will decimate everyone inside? Ok, with that in account, why don't you make a ceiling then? Even wood is good enough. It will slow a jumper just long enough for one or two defending knights to intercept him, and a bomb jumping squad is not something you usually see, so he'll be easy pickings. Worse case scenario, he gets inside, kills a few dudes/shops and eventually gets overwhelmed. There's really no biggie, you just rebuild what he destroyed and continue with the game.

 

Ceilings just give a good knight a platform to plan another jump to even more vulnerable territory. I'm against ceilings always, with the exception of that capturing the outposts mode.

You have no idea how happy i am when I see a tower with a ceiling, its like they built me my own personal springboard.