Archer changes general

Yeah but that was 3 bomb arrows at once. Bombs and bomb arrows do the same damage, just bomb arrows have a high dps. Notice how it destroys the 2 blocks on each layer every time the arrow is fired. Bombs do the same, except I think bombs only do 1 block.

 

i say yes, ad to whoever said classes were balanced, in 2 or 3 seconds, knights can deal 4 hearts of damage, in 5 second, archers can deal 3 hearts, i fail to see the balance

 

Hmm. Never noticed that. I just really only found it easier to do damage specifically to a structure. Well, I guess the more you know the better lol.

 

except the medic isnt suppost to do damage

 

Oh for the love of raping a knight in the butt with an arrow...

Why do some people label the archer as a "support" class?

Why? Because it has bomb arrows and can breach towers? So can a knight with a keg! Because it has water arrows and can stun enemies? So do knights with their water bombs! Because they can shoot arrows from a distance? And a knight can slash in melee and aid a fellow team mate just the same. Not to mention that the knight is even more useful in combat than the archer because it's especially made for combat unlike the archer who can't even hope to win a 1v1 vs a knight and has most of it's attacks blocked or arrows slashed mid flight.

I think the only reason people call it a "support" class is because archers are kinda crappy on their own and have to run around hiding behind a knight's skirt to be even marginally useful in a fight, otherwise they have to wait for those specific scenarios where they can use their bomb arrows to take out a ballista/cata or set fire to a wooden base and that's all. Other then those scenarios, you'd be better off using a knight for better efficiency not to mention that it can prove difficult to raise the coin for those special ammo unless you play a builder or a knight.

The problem isn't about damage anymore, it's about making the class useful as much as possible just as a builder or a knight and the only way to do that is to accept that the archer needs to be able to stand on it's own and NOT have to "support" other classes just to be useful in a fight.

 

I'm against this idea as it is. Arrows with extra damage still won't do any of that extra damage against a shield. And about being able to switch between this and the fodder normal arrows, you won't be less likely to spam because you still have normal arrows you can fire. And aside from that, you should be focusing on builders / archers anyway, and unless you can 1-shot them this upgrade wouldn't help because a good one would go back to heal.

How about weighted lead arrows with noticeable knockback + stunning players (even shielded knights) for a small period of time? It allows archers to increase distance between themselves and a knight in case they have to run, can really mess with a knight or builder that has to jump over a chasm or spike pit, and is really helpful in combination with a friendly knight or archer trying to attack an enemy. Arguably, this adds way more usefulness than +.5/+1 damage to arrows, and gives archers less of an incentive to camp in towers.

 

I dont give a shit what the WoW definition of a support or a tank is, since the knight and archer do not resemble any of them. All that I need to know is some facts from the game itself. The archer is not a support, nor will it ever be one. The archer is a sapper. It's current tools are anti-building and general sabotage. The archer currently has shit damage, and unreliable ways of dealing with knights. The knight is barely a tank, seriously it has massive damage good mobility and general awesomeness. The archer should never be inferior to the knight in any 1v1 situation, thats just unbalanced. Unfortunately this is the case in the current KAG. For a builder, its understandabe since it is not a combat oriented class. But the knight and archer are, and thus should be on even playing fields. Currently its so easy to just wreck everyone with a knight, and to hard to do anything worthwhile as an archer.

Btw, respect my opinion, that your opinion is stupid. ty.

 

Well fundamentally it's stupid to argue about whether the archer is definitively a support or a sapper or whatever buzzword you guys come up with because it's whatever we say it is. And no matter what it is or what we call it, that can easily be changed.

How we should be talking is in terms of what the archer should be, or even more accurately what it should be able to do. Even if it is currently a "support class" the only meaning I can parse from this term is that it's some sort of twisted justification for the archer class being worthless. And all the more reason to try to change it.

Seeing that most of the community is so fervently against archers being worth a lick in combat, my personal take is that archers be a utility class, having lots of small but useful roles that might somehow add up to a worthwhile class. Hence giving archers exclusive rights to fire and making them so strong against siege machines. It clearly isn't enough though, so we should be brainstorming more things for archer.

 

I almost wish people didn't shoot down the idea of heart arrows as much as they did, that would'a been an interesting addition...practically just have a heart stick onto an arrow so it can pass through an ally to heal them on its way toward the enemy it is being shot at, but shoot it at an enemy and it does no damage(as it heals and damages them at the same time, preventing "heal griefing" while requiring the skill not to fire the arrows all over the place.)

Maybe archer needs some fancy trick like being able to grapple kegs off people's back lol, that'd be kinda odd to implement though, I bet?

Maybe archers should be able to capture things at a faster rate? It is a risk to be near something to capture it, as archer, so maybe an extra reward for having that risk?

I dunno, just trying to throw ideas out there, archer doesn't need much to be balanced, but it does need SOMETHING...

Who knows, maybe figuring some way to give builders a better offensive push to their class will help with archers' push, too...(I've noticed a good many standoffs result from knights being the only class doing anything...because both archers and builders are too terrified to get close to knights thus neither team is pushing forward...)

 

The way I see it, KAG is about two things: battle and building.

Builders and knights already serve those two roles extremely well, while archers have gotten the short end of the straw and by not focusing on either of those roles they have no real value on the battlefield except for some rare moments such as taking out a ballista but no constant use after that.

We need to decide on one of those two roles for the archer and since seeing archers build workshops sounds silly I vote for battle or, perhaps a combination of both (building and battle) in the form of traps but I think that would require even more scripting and we still need to raise the question: "Would such utility be useful? Or will it be easier to just role a builder/knight?"

At first I actually considered that to be a good acquisition but then I realized that it is less effective than say a knight picking up a heart and healing himself, especially since the combat can end in a matter of seconds due to how quickly knights can slash you. It just seems more efficient to heal yourself than heal others, it just doesn't seem like an utility that would help all that much. Plus during that time you could just aswell negate any further damage (as it has been commented in another post) by shooting your enemy and interrupting them etc.

I think the easiest solution would be to make the archer excel at combat and give knights some competition so people have two options when wishing to fight because any other role seems to be irrelevant if it doesn't help with combat or building.

Builders are balanced, knights are balanced but the archer is still a shit class that's lacking it's own role on the battlefield and it always seems to be better to just role a knight over an archer.

That is NOT balanced by any stretch of the word, it's just that most people seem to like to turn a blind eye at the poor archer.

 

Don't make archers OP like in beta start.

 

Thank you contributing so much to this thread :)

 

Finally, migrant arrows will be a possibility.

 

I do admit archers need something to make them more suitable to fight against other classes. I just don't think they should be offensive traits. The term Contrary used, which is more specific than the term "support", was Utility.

Buffing the archer's passive traits and providing a more powerful "bag of tricks" would be the way to go in my opinion.

Maybe giving archers a larger jump height, faster movement speed, higher wall climb, etc. would be good. Making them more agile makes sense, knights wear heavy armor, archers wear cloth, but I always find my self easily being chased down by knights and killed in both water and on land. Water especially is a problem because they can throw themselves forward with their double slash.

And to talk more about the Heart Arrow idea that Crabmaster brought up. I had this kind of feeling that it just wouldn't get used too often. I proposed in that thread that adapting it to be sticky arrows would be a good idea, like what 8x brought up. Strapping supplies to the arrow, launching them to your teammates, thus not limiting it to only hearts. It could also provide, when fired at a structure, a temporary ladder, that not just archers can climb. As currently, only archers can climb arrows.

 

Grapple

Grapple

Grapple

Though I do agree with water since there isn't anything to grapple onto to speed yourself up, while knights slash swim pretty damn fast.

 

Grapple only gets you so far. When you are in retreat, have you ever tried firing an arrow while grappling behind you to gain speed so that the knight can't kill you?

 

Grapple gets you everywhere you would ever want to go, and fast too.

 

I wonder what extending the grapple length would do? Wouldn't make it easier to get around anti-grapple forts(as those designs are entirely based around timing of swings), so that wouldn't be a balance issue(hopefully), but it would let an archer grab onto things and not miss so many grapple shots! Many a times have I jumped off a cliff, grappled, and had that terrifying moment when it wont reach! Also, being able to grapple onto further things, would give them a slight mobility increase on-top of what they have?

I dunno...just throwing out more random ideas...

Also perhaps decrease archer fall damage...archers are quite prone to taking an entire heart of damage when jumping off practically anything, which is just frustrating and when using the grapple is unavoidable a lot of the time.