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Griefers can go unpunished in this game.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Guennor1, Nov 29, 2013.

?

Are you satisfied with the kick/ban system?

  1. Yes

    21.3%
  2. No

    78.7%
  1. Vidar

    Vidar KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    143
    I would imagine there are less then 20 Guards still actively playing, maybe 5 people are actively making reports on a regular basis. Thousands of people have bought the game, and god know how many servers there are now. Do some rough math, you get the picture.

    I use to police servers everyday for hours and hours, but have come to find the process stifling and too slow when griefing needs immediate attention (as in banned from all servers instantly). Roaming griefers can feasibly ruin dozens and dozens of games in the span of 15 minutes.

    Video evidence for every case of griefing is impossible to produce and is a full time job in itself. It's a lot of work for very little repercussion for the griefer. And we can't expect community members to be running fraps, collecting video evidence every time a problem player enters the scene.

    Honestly I don't see servers policing there own at this rate. I'd suggest abolishing the Guards (or whats left of them) and instating a team of active trusted community members and broadening there powers. Remember Judge Dredd roaming the mega-blocks of Mega-City One, enacting justice as judge, jury, and executioner, right there on the spot? We need that right now. At least until something better can be implemented. (I'm not volunteering.)

    Past that, grab your ankles and whistle because it's not going to get any better unless we have the resources to enact quick, permanent tough love on habitual assclowns.

    It is sorta funny when you think one dude has been griefing non stop for over a month and has suffered no real consequences for it. At least this puts the spotlight on the problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
    Beef, Bernhardt, hierbo and 5 others like this.
  2. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    It's not a bug with steam bans not working, they're intentionally turned off as we're not meant to globally "ban" anyone's steam game; we don't control that distribution service so we're not meant to remove users access.
    The "workaround" is the work-in-progress user flagging system, where servers will be able to respond to current and past flags, like "confirmed griefing in past 30 days -> banned" or "ever hacked -> banned" - this way the server admins are the ones doing the banning, we're just maintaining a helpful database of transgressions.

    We can also host a "hackers haven" type server so people can get their hacking urges out without harming other's experience.

    This system was meant to be done ages ago, but the people in charge of implementing it have been uncharacteristically slow.

    We will not be implementing any global police system; we're happy to build up a nice list of admins for the official servers and provide that list as the default seclevs, but it's on server owners to actually police their servers, not on the guards to constantly roam and check for griffer griffer pls admin banned him ogm. This is the core reason Action! Unlimited was such a great server in the classic days - it had an active, ever present administration team who would freeze, demean and then permaban anyone griefing or hacking. The (kailava hosted) Australian servers are policed in a similar way at peak times currently; I can't speak for EU.

    If the community want a group of global admins that's decided by a comunity group, build such a system as an add-on for kag (essentially merged and synced seclevs and banlists) - if it matures I'm happy to add it to the vanilla distribution and turn it on by default, but I'm not going to go out of my way to fix a problem with the community if the community is uninterested in helping itself.
     
    Beef, jackitch, Rocinante and 3 others like this.
  3. Solomon-Grundy

    Solomon-Grundy Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    56
    A "hackers haven" server? The whole point for these people is fuck up the experience of the folks playing the game the right way, not to get their "hacking urges" out.

    The thing is, people play on servers that are open and populated. There's little way for a server to differentiate itself inside the server browser at the current time, so choosing a server based on whether you know if it's policed properly is next to impossible. Also, I doubt many people would pay attention if there were. It's really the curse of the server browser model if you ask me... People go to where other people are playing. At least I do.

    The flagging system sounds like a good step. Some "smart defaults" once it is implemented would be a good idea. In the meantime, having some way of getting rid of the blatant, grandstanding griefers would be nice.
     
    Beef, hierbo, Vidar and 1 other person like this.
  4. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    You have this already and have had it for over a year, it's called seclevs and proper server administration. Contact your favourite server owners and volunteer. It's been in the community's hands for a long time to keep unwanted players out of the largely populated servers.

    The hackers haven thing is basically so we've got something to point to if valve say "hey why did this person complain to us that they cant play your game any more" - we'll be hosting it so they've still got somewhere to play even if they're banned from everywhere else. I understand every repeat offender is just doing it out of some malicious urge, and this means that we'll be able to slap flags on people a little more liberally.

    Once the flagging system is in place the defaults will be to ban anyone flagged as griefing in the past month, permban hackers, with a few other TBD flags as well, probably not on by default (for things like swastika builders and racists, so people can filter those out if they so choose).
     
  5. Solomon-Grundy

    Solomon-Grundy Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    56
    Take a step back for second and think about this from a player's perspective. How does one go about contacting a server owner? How does one even know who owns a server much less how to contact them? I'm looking at the server list right now and I see no info like that. And what's "seclevs"? I've been playing this game for over 2 years, but I don't know the answers to any of those questions. You want it to be in the hands of the "community", but you've gotta give them the ability to get involved first. Most of the community is just players wanting to have a good time.
     
    Beef, Bernhardt, hierbo and 3 others like this.
  6. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    i learned what "seclevs" were in my first week of playing, and that was in classic.
     
    Apronymous likes this.
  7. Rocinante

    Rocinante Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    133
    @Solomon-Grundy:
    1. PM them on the forums. I did so with hierbo after becoming somewhat acquainted with him on IRC and in-game.
    2. If it isn't obvious then ask around on IRC. Look at the server directory on forums. You, too, can make the connections.
    3. Read the http://wiki.kag2d.com/wiki/Security_Levels
     
    Reudh likes this.
  8. LucasTT

    LucasTT Haxor Tester

    Messages:
    455
    That doesn't work for every server.
    Some servers are obivous,like hierbo's,because it is on the server name.
    But a lot of servers have no info at all,and their owners don't idle on IRC.
     
    Beef and 16th like this.
  9. Solomon-Grundy

    Solomon-Grundy Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    56
    [​IMG]
     
    UnnamedPlayer, Beef, hierbo and 3 others like this.
  10. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    [​IMG]
     
    Apronymous and Ej like this.
  11. ShnitzelKiller

    ShnitzelKiller Haxor

    Messages:
    590
    At the point where I am reduced to complaining in a forum thread or, god forbid, PMing the server owner with no solid evidence of what transpired, the griefer has already won.
    On a slightly related note, I was kicked for bravely hauling a keg out of the way of our workshops while the griefer who lit it got off scot free (the keg did minor damage to some background blocks). So in that case it's a good thing bans lack any permanence. The more immediate control we have over the fate of perceived griefers, the greater our responsibility in exercising fair judgement.
    And then there are those inconsiderate assholes who squander the gift of lax criminal justice and ruin it for everyone. Whether we like it or not, they've gotta go.
     
    Beef likes this.
  12. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Fwiw, simply wouldn't play twice on a server if I didn't know who hosted it and it seemed to be administered. I'm not sure what you expect us to do to 'fix' servers that are run by johny98 who refuses to give moderation abilities to anyone but members of his KOOL clan - it's a lost cause, play somewhere else like heirbo's, SHARK, kailava hosted or the official servers.

    In general I'm considerably wary about being heavy handed with this sort of thing because whenever that's happened in the past, we've had some fuck up that's haunted us for months - the Yutt incident being the most severe of them, we still hear echoes of this on high profile blog posts and the like. I understand that it's frustrating for me to point to those actually hosting each server to look after that server, but that's what we require.

    Now, the majority of servers are hosted directly by the community. They do have the ability to 'get involved'; they have rcon access to their own servers, ability to assign seclevs and define their administrators, giving whoever they like the ability to act with powers above and beyond those of the guards.

    I completely agree that most of the community is just players wanting to have a good time; but to that end it seems ridiculous that I should be expected to step in to 'solve' an issue with a minority in the community when as a collective you've had the tools to fix it available for over a year now. People have used the security system to great effect in the past, and you are pleading ignorance when there is a dedicated if slightly outdated wiki article.

    Bottom line of course is 'don't play on shitty servers that lack proper administration and good hosting', but you all know that, right?

    With regards to the administration of the official servers, if there are problems there we're happy to give more people moderation powers and that would probably be a good use of the application forums @Furai @Kouji ; Insofar as everywhere else, I think it's dangerous to give unaffiliated users any administrative rights on servers we don't own.
     
    Klokinator, Ej and Duplolas like this.
  13. Armitage1982

    Armitage1982 Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    23
    As a learning procedure, the banning time should exponentially increase as more griefing is reported.
    It should be linked and stored in your account. After several ban, the griefer should wear the "hat of shame" (a flashy "pig" face) for 48h so everyone can have an eye on it.


    You should also think about a griefer detection system.

    It's not normal that in a 20 minutes game, one builder of your team start destroying rocks wall / rock door in your main hall or fighter using bomb and keg far away from battlefield.
    On each big collapsing, the system detect who trigger it. If it's happening in a quiet area, with team structure by team member using pickaxe / weapon the system should automatically enlist that player to a kick-vote.
     
    Klokinator and Solomon-Grundy like this.
  14. Solomon-Grundy

    Solomon-Grundy Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    56
    That's great, and thanks for informing me, but from an average player's perspective, not a server owner's, that doesn't have any bearing on how this issue affects me.

    Good point. I will start trying to act on this more. There was a time when you HAD to play on "the server that everyone was on" because that's all there was, but we're fortunate that there are now a ton of people (relatively) playing the game.
     
    Beef likes this.
  15. Jerln

    Jerln Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    1
    It's understandable why he loves griefing, though. The way that buildings collapse in KAG is really fun to watch. But I agree with you that he shouldn't be ruining other people's fun. That's why I only destroy buildings that I made, or if it's the enemy team's defenses in a competitive gamemode.
     
  16. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    K, done.
     
  17. Sgnt_Sneeky-Pants

    Sgnt_Sneeky-Pants Insanity Incarnate Donator

    Messages:
    100
    Ha, I came on here to make a request about this same topic. Just got ping-kicked from a game where we were being constantly griefed by mucky.
     
  18. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Hey, Geti. Could admins possibly get an... "undo" button? If the game reports a collapse, an admin could press undo to literally undo that collapse. I'm sure that's probably a lot of code to take on, but it would take a massive amount of power away from griefers.

    Realistically speaking, in order to stop massive griefs, you're either looking at block destruction detection and prevention, which could hamper good people who have to destroy shitty useless structures, or detection and undo, which allows for good griefs (Ie : Griefer built a wall so we destroyed it) while allowing one to undo bad griefs (Griefer kegged the base.)

    There should probably be a 30 second limit on the undo though, so if the base gets kegged you have to undo it in 30 seconds or less.
     
    Beef and Sgnt_Sneeky-Pants like this.
  19. LucasTT

    LucasTT Haxor Tester

    Messages:
    455
    There's an anti-grief system like that in kag classic,but it doesn't really work.The "undo" button could work,but that should be really difficult to be done.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  20. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Yeah I'm aware of that system, it follows the convention of "Detect and prevent" while my idea is "Detect and allow undo".

    Which I'm aware is probably a mass of messy coding so, it probably would never work.