Knight Changes General (ignore the op)

6/10 would play.

 

people really need to stop complaining about shit that isnt broken, knights are the way they are because they are supposed to be that strong. just stop complaining about knights being op or archers being up and learn to play the game the way it is, not the way you want it to be because it would benefit you faster then actually learing the mechanics.

 

You do realize I play 95% knight 4% builder and 1% archer.

I proposed this since most of the other proposals that were made about trying to even out the game for other classes ended up with nothing changing. Threads like the super-mega archer general changes thread that ended up with 332 replies and nothing from it being implemented. So, after essentially seeing every aspect of archer questioned and debated with the end result of course being nothing, I went and looked at what could be done to knight.

So far in this thread I have seen counter points to most of the reasons I have brought up. So let me reverse the reasoning based upon your responses.

Single slash makes you go faster in water than double slash. So why keep it?

Single slash makes you go just as high as double slash when jumping. So why keep it

Single slash is the more skillful way to fight enemies and works better than double slash. So why keep it?

If double slash is only useful when enemies are turtleing, why not just remove double slash and add a 1 heart damage to the stun. Then you do 1 heart + 1 heart from a jab.

I know these are really simple counter responses, but they make sense.

 

Both of these are so wrong. Lol

 

But both have been stated in this thread. I don't know if they are true are not, just debating them.

 

If you play 95% Knight and still don't know if any of those are true or not then you should play more instead of wasting you time making suggestions about things you don't even really know about.

 

It's pretty easy to play 95% knight if 100% is just a couple of hours

 

Theres pros and cons to the classic double slash, it may seem like a more skilled alternative, it lowers the skill ceiling a bit because your essentially making combat only single slashes, unless you hit someone. It almost serves as a buff to single slashes

 

So, groundbreaking idea here, but maybe knights are fine?
Let me point this out again, knights are the workforce of a team; you will never win a real game without knights, which means that any argument for really changing knight class isn't going to affect some small aspect of gameplay, it will drastically change the game.

Also, just on the topic of knight changes, it feels to me that knights are fairly well balanced, and most of the people screaming are doing so out of not knowing how to deal with whatever they're screaming about. Water Ammo, for instance, can be dodged, and a good team will have enough archers that the enemy team shouldn't be able to spam water ammo unopposed onto your knights. Double Slashing can be very easily countered by either dodging, which isn't that hard, especially as the battlefield gets far more clutered from the debris left behind, or having competent builders who can build structures that don't allow for knights to use double slash to get in/kill people.
Honestly, try modifying your playstyle before saying something is OP; if it still gives the same set of issues, then call it OP.

 

Yeah, Imo double slashing is fine, people just need to not be baddies

 

Should change the slave class instead. Not enough whips.

 

I disagree with this part of your post but everything else is correct. Water ammo has an AOE effect and is flung from the knight's hands extremely fast. I think that the current 1second priming time isn't long enough and would prefer it be increased to two seconds. I think that would balance it perfectly since two seconds is enough time to charge a good full slash.

 

I think the problem with this whole "Knight needs to be balanced" thing is that it's a very abstract idea of what the knight needs to be balanced against.

• Knight vs. Knight

Obviously balanced, both people have the same tools to work with. Superior tactics / teamwork / terrain advantage will prevail.

• Knight vs. Archer

At a distance, archers can pick off inattentive knights. They can harass and block off certain actions and avenues to them. Up close, the archer can break shields but has to be a lot more careful than the knight does. Overall in combat, the knight has the upper hand, for obvious reasons.

But balance goes past combat, as the archer is much better at maneuverability, retrieving / placing vehicles and other objects (even another friendly knight in a crate), hitting structural weak points, etc. They can burn down and topple buildings from a distance. They can get to capture points faster. They even do better Spiderman impressions.

• Knight vs. Builder

Apple, meet orange. In combat, builders are basically walking health potions for enemy knights, and will occasionally open a door for them. Out of combat though, the builder is the knight's worst enemy. As with the archer, balance is a lot deeper than who can take who. The only thing you can really gauge is their impact on momentum during the game. Obviously builders are infinitely more important in the building phase. Early game, they can coast on what they've gathered for a bit and repair structures as needed. Later in the game, how do they match up when tech / purchases hit? Can they keep up with the damage the enemy team does? SHOULD they?

• Knight vs. Structure

As you consider a knight against a structure, also consider what it takes for that knight to get into that position. For example, a knight with a keg. Before saying "kegs need to be toned down", keep in mind that a knight with a keg takes a huge hit to maneuverability, but can still attack. (Also side note: is this a bug or is their attack not showing up to themselves a bug? I've never really seen an official answer. Same with carrying a chicken.) They've probably had to fight through the opposing team to deposit the keg there, and if not, why is the enemy not defending their structure? As for bomb-jumping knights, once they get over a building, they're down one bomb, minimum. They can be carrying three more, which will take time and precision to get through properly built structures, and even then, only if it depends on 3(ish) blocks getting knocked out to infiltrate. They could have some mines, which would take enemy interaction to detonate. The worst possibility is that they might be carrying a drill, which is a risk to their stone reserve but potent against structures. Each has it's downsides and there's no risk- or cost-free method for the knight to get in and do damage.

They can also get into wood structures, but really wood should only be used as a last-ditch effort or when you're attending that structure anyway.

• Knight w/ equipment vs. Knight w/o equipment

Obviously the knight with equipment is going to have an advantage, but the key is to determine how much effort the defender would take to deal with it. Bombs are simple enough: watch for them to throw and divert your block towards it in time to defend. Water bombs are a bit tougher, as being hit will disable you, even with your shield up. Against a skilled knight it's a death sentence. However, water bombs and regular bombs should not be balanced the same, as water bombs are rarer / more expensive, don't do damage to structures, vehicles, or people, and aid in fire extinguishing.


I won't even attempt to say I know 100% what everything needs in order to be balanced. The best we can do is find ways to make sure each role is fun and productive. But I ask that from here on people just keep in mind that there is a lot more that needs consideration than how each class stacks up against others in combat. I think in the current state things are fun, so balance isn't at any critical point. There are things that might be tweaked to make things more fun but we'll get to those in time.

As mentioned before, everyone can play every class! You're not locked into one specific role. If they're rushing you with lots of knights, there's nothing stopping you from doing the same, or going archer to support your knights, or going builder to slow down their progress, etc. Play many roles during the game, become versatile, and you'll learn how to counter many things.

Also guys please keep in mind that everyone on this forum enjoys the game, and even if they have different ideas than you they want the game to continue to be fun. Keep the smack talk for in-game. (But still civil!)

 

My only complaint with knights, is the size of their shield's hitbox (as far as projectiles are concerned).

If a knight is shield-gliding at the same elevation as me, and i put an arrow in his kidney, that arrow should very well be in his kidney, not pinging off of thin air.

Knights have 7 possible directions of blocking, but because of the size of their shield's box, they only really need to worry about 3 of those blocking directions, except for the odd situation where an archer is below you, and they aren't dead yet.

Making the shield hitbox fit the actual size of the shield would mean that knights would have to pay a little more attention when it comes to blocking arrows, and would give archers more opportunities to actually deal damage, without requiring a point blank legolas.

 

Knights can fly and wall climb with kegs while carrying shields. Their shields can block explosions and arrows with ease. They can outrun anyone, and taking away ONE of these traits would make them 'useless'? Lol, no.

There is a reason that no one every says "We NEED more archers to win this, guys". Knights make archers look like a spectator class.

Do the devs play their own game? Pressing 'tab' would reveal what percent of people play knights vs archer and how their scores compare. Nerfing keg and Knight would be simple, but if the devs want to shoot their game in the leg while theyre being featured by Steam, then by all means go ahead. I think the number of games played in KAG is evidence enough.

Pseudo Code (for non-programmers) to fix overpowered Keg/Knight Combo in 5 minutes.

While Knight is holding keg {
if { Arrow collides with Knight
Knight drops keg }}

Bam, fixed.
Pay me munies

 

dude, you dont understand that archers arent supposed to be strong. if they were it would ruin the game, how does it make sense to be a knight but get totally butt raped by an archer. archers are merely for support, burning structures and punching holes in defenses, not for RECKING EVERYTHING ON THE FIELD ALL AT ONCE. the only change i would even be willing to accept for archers is an extra heart.

 

If archers are a glorified spectator class, what's the point in them existing?
I'm not saying that archers should be able to be more destructive than knights, but they need to at least counter knights in some way bc right now they are useless. Adding a heart wouldn't really fix anything if they're not a class that is suppose to be hit to begin with.

 

Like kedram said, they're good as support.
You probably won't 1v1 a knight but if multiple knights are fighting you can easily shoot your enemies to support(!) your team.
You can burn down considerable parts of the enemy base without even getting close (on pubs anyways)
You can blow holes in enemy castles without even getting close.

And actually most of the time there are more Builders than Knights and Archers in the team (on pubs anyways).
Does that mean Builders are OP as well?