Tell me im wrong (noob thread)

If 10 bombs broke a shield, how many arrows would it take? If it takes something like 30 or 40, then there's honestly no reward. If it took less, then it would make archers so much stronger and scarier, to the point to where it probably becomes to dominant class, what with all their siege abilities.

Also, 10 bombs hitting a shield in a single life is pretty rare, even for good knights. Two or three for an insane bombjump, and then 1 or even 2 for any other ones. You could probably get 5 out of it, and that's plenty to get past any defenses.

 

That post was all based on pure assumption. That assumption was that knights are more skill based class then archers (I also assumed the skill being referred was strictly combat based). So yes your right a Knight is not an ideal opponent for an archer but when push comes to shove you pit these two classes against each other it takes more skill from the archer to come out on top because of what hes up against.

I don't see how knights aren't one of your main opponents as an archer. They are the biggest threat in this game regardless of class.

 

Shield breaking is a terrible idea. How about we just make archers do more damage and call it good? I've been pushing for the 1.5 dmg buff for a long time now.

 

I personally believe knights to be incredibly skill based, it's just that ping comes in and adds massive error bars/acts as a multiplier, making skill with knights considerably less important ;_____;

I think the real issue is that archers also take quite a bit of skill, and there are a lot less skilled archers than skilled knights, so people see a skilled knight stomping all over the place, and say "oh, knights are strong," but they never see a skilled archer gliding across the map, sticking it to the knights, so they say "oh, archers are weak."

This isn't true though, there ARE skilled archers out there who can wreck knights, they are just way harder to find, because most people prefer to play knight, and become better at knight, rather than archer. This creates the awkward situation where people blame class imbalances on skill imbalances, IMO none of these threads would have ever been started if verra and whoever else played more matches.

p.s. I miss teh raines down in Aaaaaafricaaaaa

 

Any good archer knows that would never work considering that 90% of the time killing a archer at close range as a knight is a point and click adventure.

 

Like I said in my post I'm not a seasoned knight player. I don't know the average amount of bombs blocked and bomb jumps a a top tier knight does in one life and I also don't know on average how many arrows is blocked in one life. That being said the idea came more as the mental image of a builder drilling threw a shield then threw the knight. Its an image that put a smile on my face. As for practical application I don't see it happening its only realistic use is for high skilled players totally pub stomping noobs forcing the pub stomper at some point to get a new sheild. Even in that application it wouldn't work very well especially if you have the ability to restock your shield at the enemy spawn.

By some strange twist of fate (I know this is never going to happen) if this is implemented you could go a couple of routes:
-making friendly bombs not effect durability that way the knight only need to worry about taking to many enemy bombs.
-you could have two separate life bars for the shield so the shield can take X amount of bomb hits or X amount of arrows hits before it is destroyed.

 

I've been perfecting for a long time now how to kill knights at close range as archer, if perfected it to being able to kill most knights on a flat plane 90% and can kill most knights 20% of the time in most areas, what I have been able to do best as archer is to peck at builders and other archers but killing knights as a archer can be very hard for knights who just hold down right click. Archer is however incredibly good at doing the following: caping flags, stealing a balista/cata that is being unpacked, breaking into flag rooms with 2,3 bomb arrows, distracting knights and baiting them into traps, being annoying.

 

archers are fine where they are, they arent supposed to reck everything in sight which the damage buff will indeed do

 

Friendly bombs never do damage anyway, so that's not an issue. I really like the idea of the life bars, though.
Also, don't think that there's no way it can get implemented. If you make a really good argument, you can convince enough people. Even further, if you can convince the right people it could get coded in and put in a testing build for the testers to try out and give feedback on. You might never see it in the public build, but just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it wasn't considered. It's also a really big boost if the devs don't have to do the work themselves, so if you can code it or get someone else to do it for you, and possibly even tested on a privately run server, it'll really give it a boost.

Back it up. How would it do that? Explain or you'll be exactly like the guy up there who said "omg knights op"

 

i already did actually, "As long as your a good archer and you know how to play well you can almost certainly 1v1 knights given you have the space to do so. however unless you can get away as archer while a knight is cooking a bomb your fucked and that's fine because is a bomb and yea boom dead big deal. I do feel like arrows shouldn't be jabbed or slashed out of the air. that makes it extremely annoying when you shoot the knight at one heart but oh he jabbed the arrow and kills you anyway... " this was said earlier and it supports the only real buff archers should get. they really are fine where they are right now. they are monstrous as is and good ones like epenow can be a massive annoyance to lone knights. giving them a damage buff is asking to give archers power they shouldn't have.

 

@Rubixxcube

Shield durability is an interesting idea I'm just not personally sold on it. I want archers to feel more impactful (thats a word right) and being able to remove shield does that a bit. It just seems to small a thing, granted its cool. I love the idea of a knight having to run for cover or even the sweet sweet status that would come with slaying a bunch of knights while not wielding a shield.

We could use it as a proving grounds of sorts. Real knights don't need shields. "press s to drop your shield"

actually in knight vs knight you basically don't use the shield anyway right?

anyways i am just spiraling .

 

Ok, seriously though, it isn't THAT hard to kill knights as an archer. Let's look at some things:

Spoiler: Killing Knights as Archer

Positioning/movement: archers are often camped at the top of towers, which gives you a blatant positioning advantage. If you aren't so fortunate, find any tree, anywhere, and you can climb up it, and you've got a height advantage again. Grapple up something, I don't care, anyone who thinks that knights are faster and more maneuverable than archers has no clue what they're talking about. And don't bring up bombjumps, because you have forever to a) shoot them, b) get away from where you think they're going to land, while their timer is ticking down.

Now that you have a height advantage, you can stomp a knight to shield break and stun him, or if he isn't shielding, stun and do straight up damage. A triple shot will add 3 arrows to that, 1 heart each, 3 hearts. If you can both trip shot and stun a knight at relatively close range (may have to shoot before the stomp, cuz you may get stunned too, idk, not really the best archer), like if you were at the top of a tree, or he was trying to get up a tower you were camped on, then if he wasn't shielding, you can straight up kill him and get out in an instant, he won't even know what hit him.

If the knight was missing even a single heart, then he's dead no matter what. If he was at full health, and shielding, then you take away 3 hearts, and even if he kills you afterwards, he did 2 hearts, you did 3, you technically won that encounter.

Yes, knights can dodge this, so it takes skill to execute it correctly, but bear in mind, only skilled knights are going to expect it in the first place. I'm a pretty bad archer, but I can still take out pretty bad knights without any risk to myself whatsoever. I'm a pretty good knight, and I still get killed by pretty good archers. If you actually take the time to learn all of the tricks that your class has at its disposal, and take on players that are actually around your skill level, you can be victorious regardless of class. I don't think anything needs to be changed, I honestly believe that, as I've already stated 3 times, the issues come from skill differential, not class imbalances.

none of this is even mentioning that on flat ground you can run up to someone with a trip shot, deal 2 damage, grapple away, repeat, and kill them easily as long as you play your cards right and know when to back off.

Spoiler: Shield Meters And Breaking

Having said that, if there WERE to be a feature implemented with shield health, I'd prefer something like your shield regenerates rather quickly, but has a much smaller damage threshold, so if you land a 3 arrow volley on a knight, even from far away, his shield will get broken just like if someone slashed him. He'll be able recover in the same amount of time, before you can get another volley up, but that's because being able to deal considerable damage at a long range without your opponents having any real defense other than hiding would be INSANELY OP, so sorry, but IMO if you want to take out a knight from a long distance you need to have more than one archer.

p.s. u'll come a waltzing Matilda wit meeee

E:
>not using shield in knight vs knight
>lol, seems legit.

shield is incredibly useful when you're in a poor position and you want to move to get into a better one, without getting killed. Being able to shield and hop around helps prevent all of the atrocious slash camping that took place in alpha, where each player could see whether or not they would win if they went in with the slash, as their opponent was also charging one, and if they saw that they would lose, they would just refuse to go in. This would lead to two knights sitting in the middle of the map, charging slashes, moving back and forth, never swinging at each other, looking lake absolute morons, until one of them said "fuck it," or someone else came along. Shields help tremendously to negate this obnoxious situation.

 

It's not a small change though. It's a massive change that would require 800 new rebalances on top of the balances we already need. Also if you lose your shield in the heat of battle and you keep relying on R-mouse muscle memory, it'll get annoying fast.

 

Alpaca you have answered my prayers. its risky, Its skill based, and it kills knights. Its everything I want.

I can't wait to try it.

Thanks again.

 

omg knights use shield all the time. It might not block slashes for shit, but you can shieldbash, glide up walls, slide really quickly away from an enemy, and parkour while holding it down to keep you from getting hit from below, just to mention a few of it's uses.

E:

if you said it already, why are you repeating it, unless you have more to add to it? Also, jabbing an arrow takes serious luck/timing, so it's honestly not very OP.

 

Yeah I think tweaking it so arrows can't be jabbed/slashed and make special arrows unshieldable would also be a good buff instead of 1.5 dmg. I'd do that and just see how it work.

 

Sorry I must have wrote (typed) that poorly. What I meant is by having the ability to remove a shield wouldn't give an archer a sense of having a great impact on the game like killing a knight would. It would cool an all as an archer to shoot a knight and see his shield fly off and whatnot but its a big change for very minimal returns.

Yes the changes to the game would probably be massive.

Just so were clear I don't want this idea I'm just kicking it around.

 

Oh okay. If it's just for kicks then I think it's a cool idea, possibly for a mod. I mean hell if someone made a mod for this and it worked amazingly I might be all for it myself.

I'm a big fan of Starbound and similar game's approaches where if a mod is good it can be implemented as an official part of the game. You don't see that often enough.

 

This is much better than my idea. In the sense that you don't have to trek all the back to the base to get a new shield. So losing your shield doesn't completely cripple your push and if archers are coordinated and accurate they can take out a knight in a much more reasonable amount of time.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2014, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2014 ---

This is a very smart idea for any indie game developer and it makes for a really great gaming community. Heck the reason league of legends and DOTA2 even exist is because some of the founding members of those games started as modders for DOTA.

On that note I'm interested in learning how to code for recreational purposes. I know this is off topic but would anyone know where I should start?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2014 ---

I didn't see this at first. Alpaca you are a wealth of information.

 

i said it again because noone listens and continues to think archers need a damage buff of some kind when they really dont. I just get annoyed when people come on threads and dont read everything and immediatly say OHHH ARCHERS UNDERPOWERED BUFF NAOWW11.... however alpaca did a way better job of showing why this should not be