Remove Boulder Drilling [984]

... I guess this is how they are comparable to Water bombs then...

But aside from that, Boulders can be caught in the air, its way easier then catching bombs mid-flight because of the priority of it.

 

Like Darksteel said many times over and a few other players ive seen i-gme doing.

Drills take down stone/wood blocks, boulders deal with doors and are very weak if hit by the enemy.
If a boulder rolls down a hill, think about how big a boulder usually is irl then compare it to the size of you irl and the shield, ofc its doing to instakill you on a incline.

All these things balance the games tools out, yes the boulder may be seriously OP to doors and enemies, but it only takes one bomb/bomb arrow or a couple hits from the pickaxe and its broken.

So im not sure why you guys are complaining about how "OP" it is, when you have bombs which can be thrown twice/thrice the length of classic one's, and you can still attack while holding a keg plus many other things.

-Darksteel, water bombs can be caught in the air if you time it right.

 

... So your argument is that boulders are totally ok because of irl logic. Since when does video game logic even step a single foot into that realm?

You aren't sure why we're complaining about how OP it is? Maybe you should go back and read our posts.

In all seriousness though, as for destroying boulders with bombs, if the guy with a boulder is far away then he has plenty of time to put the boulder into his inventory. If he's camping right outside of your door, then chances are he will drop the boulder on you and one hit ko you as soon as you open it.

If your team actually manages not to build ground doors, then I submit one of the biggest parts of my initial argument, to which not a single person had even attempted to counter as of yet:

The main thing that's wrong with boulder drilling, is if a single archer sneaks past your team, cause you're spawning at a different hall than they're attacking, or because they grappled onto the wall before you could kill them, then they can take your hall in a matter of seconds, for the low low cost of just a little bit of stone. It is not feasible to leave someone defending every single one of your bases AT ALL TIMES, especially not in smaller games when you don't have as many players to begin with.

The objective of this game should not be "run past the other team with a boulder to win," it should be "Fight, using the games weapons, workshops, and otherwise obviously intended mechanics, to take their halls and win in a head on confrontation"

 

-Implying that this function isn't intended.

Anyway, I would actually agree with the Archers thing, it is pretty illogical that a puny little archer can carry a Boulder like that and use a grapple hook.

That said, at the present time, I enjoy Boulder mechanics as knight.

So I propose you this; if Archers were not allowed to grapple with a Boulder, would that be a significant nerf?

 

... I guess I would be satisfied if boulders:
A) Could not fit in inventory (ESPECIALLY ARCHER INV)
B) Stopped archers from grappling while they were being carried
C) Did not have sufficient momentum to one hit non ground doors after a knight wall climbed up, ie. if you have doors that are a decent bit off the ground, but your team can still get back in, as long as they aren't ground doors they can't be insta destroyed by boulder throwing
D) Either broke when their holder's bombs went off, or slowed them down significantly when bombjumping

While I can see how you may want to argue against C, I think that A, B, and D are absolutely required, in order to prevent games from just turning into "Super Mega Boulder Racer."

I want my tth and ctf to be pvp, not race to the finish challenge mode, so preventing boulders from being used as an absolute end all for the first person who can find an unprotected doorway is a must. I would still like C to be implemented because I do think that they would still be way too powerful, but A B and D are non negotiable

 

The only one I truly have a problem with is A, mainly for Knights though, Boulders are far to tender to survive on a battlefield, and to be effective cross a battlefield they must.

 

So... rounding up suggestions and adding a few of my own:

-Make boulders too big to fit in inventory

-Disable archer grapple while carrying

-Add a minimum distance before the boulder is capable of doing damage to doors (such as 1-2 blocks away, this would still allow damage to ground level doors quite easily, but would make skydoors more resistant to drilling)

-Increase boulder cost? (perhaps 50 - 75 stone?)

-Disable shield gliding/surfing/skiing while holding a boulder? (This might be too far, but just throwing it in here)

Imo, something needs to be done to balance this. It should still be a usable tactic, but should be made a much more situational one, so that games aren't instawon by the team that rushes boulders first.

Edit: I'm not saying all of these should be implemented, i'm just throwing ideas at you guys, to see if you find them reasonable.

 

Okay lets see, I've got counters for a few of these;

1) Boulders are far too tender to not be put in your inv, sorry but thats just how it is.

2) No complaints, this is probably the best option if a nerf is necessary (though it isn't)

3) so we'd increase it from .5 blocks to 1.5 or something? doesn't sound that hard to adapt too to be perfectly honest, if this is implemented it'll be overcome quickly.

4) This is kind of unfair, at this cost it would be more efficient to just buy a drill.

5) I think the movement decrease is penalty enough for carrying it imo. That said, gravity effecting you more as well might be suitable.

 

I think the boulders being hard to bring to the front lines is fine (by not allowing you to protect them in your inventory). In my opinion, the boulder is meant to be catapult ammo, so bringing it to the front is unimportant. Also using it as a tool to drop off your wall for kills also doesn't require you to get down into melee.

Unfortunately, nobody in their right mind would use the boulder as a dropping item off their wall under current mechanics, because you'd be handing the enemy a wrecking ball.
Why not just disallow the boulder from being thrown and stored in inventory, like the keg? If it is so massive that it can crumple doors readily, it would be impossible to throw or store in a backpack. Also, why is it that characters can perform such a feat of strength with the boulder, but then have only normal strength for all other tasks? PCP?

 

Shit it weighs 35 stone.

How much Stone can we carry again?

Yeah.

Anyway, how many times have you seen a Boulder used as Catapult ammo Hierbo? Because in Australia, I have never seen it, not once. Ever.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "Dropping"? the way you word it is odd, we technically already drop it.

 

In response to your first comment, I never see it used as catapult ammo because it is, inexplicably, far more destructive being thrown by a human than launched by a war machine. That's a big reason for tweaking it right there.

What I meant by dropping the boulder is that a player could be at the top of a wall or cliff could set down the boulder, like the keg, such that it falls over the edge and lands on somebody. I feel that under those conditions, it could gib people or break doors only because it has built up momentum from falling, not from being thrown.

Regarding your premise of the boulder's cost determining its mass: I feel that is debunked by virtue of the fact that by the same logic, each stone door tile is more massive and dense than that, yet only a fraction as strong when directly compared vs. one another.

EDIT: It is hilarious how badly my phone wants to autocorrect "keg" to "key"

 

Look, this is my problem with your suggestion;

Boulders would never, ever be used.

You'd remove an element of gameplay for being able to break doors. A dropped Boulder wouldn't be used in combat, someone dropping a Boulder from a height (The only time this would be viable is on top of a besieged base.) to take out maybe 1 - 3 Knights or perhaps a Builder, would be pointless as a Knights slash + fall damage combo would do the same. If they were used as Catapult ammo (They still wouldn't be) it would be to inefficient to lug one to the front lines to do small damage.

I find that removing it being "Thrown" would waste an item, a good item.

Now to the cost v density and weight, mass thing.

I suck at math. (I felt I needed to say this before any math related stuff happened.)

When I see the Boulder break a door, what I feel happens is along the lines of; being blown of its hinges, not actually breaking. the force of the average Knight, enough to shred a man to paste in a manner of seconds, amplified through a large solid object, would smash into a stone object of higher density, crippling the weakest link, the hinges. The door would not stand without those and simply falls down (Look you can argue that it actually destroys them but this is just what I feel happens.)

I doubt I will convince you to change your views, but I can argue the points of Boulders for a long while. And I assure you now, I can think a pro for everyone of your cons.

 

at the very least, archers cannot be able to grapple with boulders, or place them in inv then grapple regardless of the fact that they're carrying one, even if knights are still allowed to keep them in inventory.

I would also still like to see them pretty much completely nerfed in close range against structures, ie) doors, or at a minimum heavily nerfed for their door damage when not launched out of a cata or something. However, I would be willing to compromise for them just not being effective at destroying non ground doors. This would allow people to continue using it to stomp pubbies and ruin their game play even faster than without boulders, but would force them into making fair confrontations in legitimate higher skilled games.

 

I think another part of the problem is that they're not particularly impressive when used the "right" way, like catapult ammo or dropping from a high height. I'd love to see their close range death cannon abilities completely removed, and maybe throw in a mechanic where they burst and cause a larger damage output when they hit something with a velocity that could only be achieved by a catapult or drop from a tower/cliff.

Think about it; why is a boulder, the first and most primitive human weapon, at all effective compared to badass medieval arms?

 

So you want to nerf it, then buff it. Okay, right.

As for the second thing said; It is a bloody video game Hierbo, the age of the Boulders initial discovery has no place within this argument. Also, you will find that it is not effective against medieval arms because of how fast they break it.


And honestly? removing the throw mechanic would make it useless, but I don't feel like repeating myself on why.

Splash damage on the boulder still wouldn't make it used, especially not by dropping it. And on the two times that one is fired out of a Cata, it will still break immediately and not do any proper damage to what it was aimed at.

 

Yes, I want to nerf it by removing the nonsense part about it, then buff it in a different way so that its not rendered useless. I think that the reason why it is never used in the catapult is because it sucks when used that way; if it were good when used that way, people would start to use it as catapult ammo, don't you think?

Your point about the boulder's status as a primitive weapon is well taken, though. It is true that it doesn't matter if it isn't setting appropriate. I brought it up mainly just to point out how silly it seems when used as a battering ram. Truth is, I think it would be better if it just were a battering ram!

 

Battering Ram

-Costs 250 - 500 wood
-Can be manned by multiple people to increase destructive force
-Will damage unnatural blocks when colliding with them, similar to boats but to a lesser degree
-Breaks from overuse
-Practically useless when manned by a single person

Add this, make boulders suited more to be used as ammo/for traps, life improves.

Honestly idk how this would work, the movement would have to be like that of rowing a boat.. and that'd be really awkward on land. Just a random idea lol

Edit:Yeah actually... a multi-person battering ram would be a shit idea. How would you jump with it? xD

Edit: Unless when created it's placed into a box, similar to a cata/warboat/etc. Could be unpacked at the enemy's defenses and used.