1. Hey Guest, is it this your first time on the forums?

    Visit the Beginner's Box

    Introduce yourself, read some of the ins and outs of the community, access to useful links and information.

    Dismiss Notice

General Knight Changes

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Auburn, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. bobotype

    bobotype Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    153
    Perfect example of a person with nothing to say using ad hominem to put somebody else down. You're not being constructive, just rude.
    You aren't the whole community, so why should I care if you don't want it to be discussed? I only care about the pros and cons you bring to the table about the ideas. How about you quit the forums if you aren't prepared to be constructive?
    As long as the Knights aren't of comparable skill to the Archer, because otherwise an Archer has no chance either from defences or on the ground of killing that Knight. Arrow slashing changes very little in terms of balance when the Knight still has an Arrow-/Bomb-impenetrable Shield.
    This isn't what I'm asking, but here's what a laundry list of BIG changes would look like:
    >Remove Shield
    >Make Knights have 3 HP
    >Remove wallrunning for Knights
    >Increase cost of individual Bombs to that of the Bomb Arrow
    >Make Keg carrying slow Knight by 200%
    >Make Knights instantly drown in water
    Now there's a list of BIG changes
    Because why? Being skilled at Archer makes the Archer be a better class than the Knight? Skill doesn't change the kit and abilities available to a class.
    Um 20 things where sorry?
    Ironically you aren't the first person to suggest that. Also, I fucking read the whole thing. That applies to posting THREADS not COMMENTS.
    Yes please. Okay, how about Knights drop Shield while Jabbing and carrying anything-- such as Keg, Boulder, Burger, Crate etc; as well as Shield drop when cooking/holding a Bomb. Seems fair to me, isn't a HUGE change but increases windows of opportunity for Knight to get hit. If the Knight wants to, for instance, cook and lob a Bomb into a Door while an Archer helplessly watches, he's going to have to tank some damage.
     
  2. PandemicCommander

    PandemicCommander Shipwright

    Messages:
    137
    @bobotype I understand that there IS a steeper skill curve for archer, a low skilled knight generally does better than a low skilled archer. The issue is, since things even out at higher skill levels, any changes made to balance for low skill need to keep the high skill game balanced.
     
  3. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    It kinda applies to comments as well. But enough of that.

    About the dropping shield thing, I find it kinda fair that they are able to even do such a thing. Best to make the game a tiny bit more one sided than a massive stalemate. It's less enjoyable when you can straight up murder the carrier and then you can just kill him and run past without having to do much.

    And besides, you can still break a keg or whatever when someone's holding it anyways. The slash or stab still gets through and damages the thing the guy's holding... except bombs of course. I for one don't like the idea of dropping the shield while priming a bomb. Makes it easier to bomb jump while in the heat of battle.

    Without it, not alot of people would be able to even bomb jump, which then turns the game into a slight stalemate... considering the knights in question has to like.. wait for builders to come and build ladders up to the top... only to watch those builders get get instantly murdered by the knights above. :I
     
  4. Galen

    Galen Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    1,262
    Alright ladies, once again it's time to cease the hostilities (or carry them over to a nice little PM), and head back to the topic. Be constructive, not destructive.


    holy crap that sounded like FBB ;~;
     
  5. bobotype

    bobotype Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    153
    True about changes needing to keep skill levels as well as game balance in account, but I would disagree that it evens out at all when both the Archer and Knight or Builder are of equal skill level. Even an excellent CQC Archer could die pretty easily to an equally skilled Knight who knows how to dodge, and no matter your skill level as an Archer you can't take down a Knight at range if he knows you're there and knows how to press RMB. Yet that's meant to be an Archer's specialty, so that's quite counterintuitive.
    That's why I was suggesting Lockpicks, too, to assist the Archer in sneaky back-capping if everyone else is fighting an attrition war.
    Interesting that you said "slash or stab". On the topic of Archer, if the Knight's anywhere near your walls by the time you manage to shoot it, he's going to KEBAB the walls to death even as one guy. Transporting a Keg to blow out a wall should be a team effort with people protecting the keg carrier, not a solo Rambo mission.
    So you shouldn't be vulnerable while priming your super duper bomb jump, which flies you across the map and can kill enemies around you, while you're in combat? Silly.
    Yes, that's great feedback; there do need to be more stalemate breakers. Lockpicks could be a solution to this, opening a wad of doors for your team or yourself. Gotta say though, a higher skill ceiling to bomb jumping seems fair, because as PandemicCommander said a low skilled knight generally does better than a low skilled archer anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  6. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Well, this an exciting thread to come back to after a few days away with the family. >_>

    Basically what @Galen :heart: said. Play nice with the other kiddies or mummy will be cross. And to some of you, give @bobotype a chance to find his place in the community. Some of our longest standing members didn't really seem to fit in when they joined, but given time they've become an asset. :huh?:

    If you can't post something nice (or at least polite/sans ad hominem) then dun post. EoD
     
    Galen and bobotype like this.
  7. PandemicCommander

    PandemicCommander Shipwright

    Messages:
    137
    @bobotype Yeah, it IS kinda counter intuitive that archers cant take on knights at a distance 1v1. Being able to support you knights from way back and guarantee your side takes the fight seems to make up for it though. My major beef with this right now is that the game doesn't recognize support score-wise at all. If it did, it think playing ranged support would be a lot more rewarding. As is, knights take all our kills and therefore get all the points. That's not really a game balance thing, but I think it's a way the game really favours knights in a soft way. If the game rewarded good archer play with points more, the skill curve might be easier to climb since new players will get better positive feedback from the game and more easily recognize when they're doing something right. Something like that may actually make a huge difference to new players picking up the game, since when you're new, it's harder to judge the usefulness of your actions.

    As for knights taking on CQC archers, I play a lot of TDM to stay sharp. I must say, in 1v1, slight advantage goes to the archer. This goes out the window once the game gets more busy but if i'm fighting in a small game, I'd rather take on knights than archers.

    I'm at least curious how lock-picks would work. There could maybe be something to that if implemented right since archer is the only class that cant deal with enemy doors normally. The key is not messing up high level balance, so if lockpicks WERE implemented, they'd need to be an easy to use way to open doors, but far from the BEST way to. As long as a good archer can grapple around, bombing and burning troublesome doors, he shouldn't need lock-picks at all. Lock-picks would need to be a slow way for new archers to deal with doors. I'm not sure how well that would fit in with the pace of gameplay, but it would be neat to see done right at least.
     
  8. Superblackcat

    Superblackcat baideist baide Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    462
    It's really easy to kick the ass of one knight, but when 2-3 comes at you? you're screwed, and basically, ... they have overwhelming advantage.


    How would you do this for scores/ Support score? I can't even think about it mathematically, try thinking about it code-wise.
     
  9. Superblackcat: assists would be counted independently of kills, and would contribute 50% the 'points' a kill does.
     
  10. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Re: "lockpicks would just hold doors open, you misunderstood" - then the item is just bloat with minimal/opportunistic-only use akin to doors getting jammed by corpses. There are already too many of those kind of items in the game, I'd prefer fewer, not more. Carry a drill with you, its just one slot. Archer can also effectively use mines, and deploy them inside bases - again, this is just one slot. Archer can also carry a boulder and use that to smash doors from point blank. I don't think the archer needs more ways to sneakily back cap things with the current state of the game.

    Re: "nah even a high skill archer is boned vs a knight" - this really just shows you have never earnestly tried to 1v1 any of the good archers as a knight. Even on flat terrain they are really hard to hit; it's not a matter of the knight knowing how to dodge, because when the archer is good you don't get a choice weather you're hit, and they're generally within range for their arrows to stun. Pandemic confirms this above from the perspective of an archer-main player.

    Re: groups of knights stomping - honestly outside of TDM have never seen 3v3 or greater pure archer vs knight melees, it's always a mix. I feel that the archer group could actually really put some hurt onto the knights if they either stayed within stun range or kept distance and used spec ammo, but again, I haven't seen this happen so I'm just speculating.

    Re: assists = rewarding play - I've already conceded this but honestly I really hate the idea that people need points for something that causes their team to win the game to be "worthwhile". You already get coins for every hit you get in, and more often than not you're able to move up immediately due to the enemy getting stomped.
    I find TTH games currently suck as archer though unless you literally spam spec ammo the whole game, because there's no coin reward, as well as no reason to move forward due to inability to cap halls effectively. I think this is due to the sweeping fundamental issues with TTH though.

    You are vulnerable when priming any jump greater than a single (if not the knight then the bomb on the ground), and you're still pretty vulnerable when priming a single (a single timed, unavoidable water shot will cost you 3 hearts).

    Archer actually has the best chance of clearing a keg from the walls due to the massive knockback on kegs from arrows; any knight will extol the difficulty of removing a lit keg from your vicinity. The issue is that killing the keg carrier is generally too difficult, something that the carrier taking damage when the keg is hit should fix.

    Spec arrows are able to damage or kill, and you're able to stall him quite effectively just by shooting continuously - any time he's shielding is time he's not putting out damage to your team, time your knights (or yourself) can be moving in for the kill. It's not just about consistently damaging a unit. If normal arrows are ineffective for a particular night, take some water with you (2 stacks), and use the first shot of a legolas volley as water, followed up with 2 normal arrows for 2 hearts of damage and almost 3 full seconds of stun (not to mention a 4 or 8 face popup).
     
    Ej, Auburn, Yagger and 2 others like this.
  11. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    @Geti makes another set of good points.

    You'd be amazed how important slowing enemies can be, getting 2-3 Knights to chase you about on a wild goose chase just to lead them back to their own base is 2-3 Knights not fighting on the frontlines! And if you manage to kill one then that is at least one Knight waiting for respawn with several other Knights having wasted time.

    Also I have found Archers are the ideal class for grabbing kegs people have dropped, because grabbing that keg and then grappling away as fast as possible might get you killed but can save your base from being broken into very very effectively!
     
  12. Superblackcat

    Superblackcat baideist baide Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    462
    No, it's very annoying for archers because they don't get much coins. The time it takes for an knight to deal four hearts of damage, an archer might've dealt one, if' it's lucky.
     
    bobotype likes this.
  13. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    well the reason for this is that archers can only hit one target at a time, knights can actually hit multiple targets at once which means they get more money. overall archers are very good for dealing with a singular enemy. in a 1v1 situation with no bombs an archer would absolutely demolish a knight. and dont even get me started on 2block tall tunnels and plots of land that you can circle around, overall archers dominate on the 1v1 field but when there's 2 enemies its extremely hard for the archer to do anything. that there is why knights excel so much in ctf and tth. they go up against mass enemies and the really good knights know how to time slashes and bombs consecutively to actually take on 4 or 5 knights. archers cant do that because they dont have an aoe base attack or an easily acquirable item aoe.
     
  14. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    You can't sneak when it is 21+ ppl on a server. You will get slaughtered instantly. Though if everyone are spawned at some ballista and no one are spawned at regular spawn then you are able to use a drill, boulder, mines etc.

    Btw, drills are a bit op when they insta-kills archers.

    And when a builder starts to use their pickaxe at you they sometimes deals 2 dmg in 1 sec. They are like jumping around and somehow dealing dmg faster then normally.
     
  15. builder can easily combo but knight can simply break out and archer shouldnt even get hit



    #dontgethit
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 26, 2014, Original Post Date: Apr 26, 2014 ---
    [​IMG]
     
    franek123 likes this.
  16. bobotype

    bobotype Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    153
    That's actually true, but that's because of another variable: Terrain. Every TDM map I've played has like a Quake 2D sort of vibe, with trampolines everywhere, floating islands, etc., which means the Knight is spending a lot more time midair, time where an opportunistic Archer can actually get a shot in from beneath, or sneak around behind them from below the floating islands. But CTF/TTH the most you get in that respect is "Mountain with a tunnel through it". So Knights are safe Shielded in basically 2 and a half directions. Archers are further stymied there because even if the Knight is directly below them, in the spot where the hitbox of the Shield finally allows hits, they can't hit that Knight because they can't shoot directly down when they're sitting atop a Wall. It's bloody madness.

    But if you want a Drill or Boulder as an Archer, you've got to change to Builder, find Stone that other Builders haven't already taken for the base, buy it and switch back to Archer. And mines don't help the Archer bypass terrain.

    Even when the Archer is great, CQC is not an infallible method of killing Knights. I'm pretty sure that with each of the maybe 5 Archers who bothered to CQC me in my 60 hours of play, I was able to dodge them, although I'm pretty sure I died a few times too. No, on flat terrain Archers are quickly put out by jabbing, I've done it back in my atrocious jabspamming days of which I am now ashamed. Their natural CQC habitat is using a sheer wall to jump off. And "CQC" is honestly a misleading title, because where it's useless the most is anywhere with a low ceiling. Maybe you're right, maybe I've never met a top tier Archer in combat, but I definitely earnestly tried to kill the ones I did meet [by jabbing like a little shit], and 60% of the time it worked every time. Personal experience story end.


    Builders get Gold for making Workshops, that's a thing that causes their team to win the game. There's no reason to hate it. Unless you're lucky enough to hit them in the 2.5sec charging/slashing window, you're only stunning them for your Knight, who then nets the kill instantly during their Doubleslash, so they're netting the coin, not you. Or is there a mechanic where hitting Shields nets coin, or something?


    Absolutely sensible that you are or should be vulnerable while bomb jumping.

    Thank you based Geti, because solo durka durka warriors are annoying as aids to competent Builders.

    Geti, 2 things, correct me if I'm wrong but can't Bomb Arrows and Fire Arrows be Shielded against? Any Knight can simply run towards whatever you're trying to defend as Archer while holding RMB, getting sheer up against the Wall, and dropping a Bomb or hacking at it if wooden [You can't shoot directly down at him if you're standing on the wall, and Grappling to reach him invites you to get murdered unless you're quite high up], and once he's done that he can run on to the objective or retreat. You haven't stalled him effectively, it's not even likely you made him pause.

    Hopefully with Geti's planned change that'll happen more often <3
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  17. Superblackcat

    Superblackcat baideist baide Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    462
    The main problem is that, you can't play specifically as archer. I play archer, I'm halfway decent sometimes. But In games, there a times where it's impossible to get coins as an archer. which is what I think bobotype is very annoyed at. This all solved by switching to knight or builder, but I think he wants archer to have a larger role inside the game, like you can always switch to archer and do something.
     
  18. bobotype

    bobotype Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    153
    Yeah man kinda, specifically what needs a fix is the Archer's basic kit needs to be useful against Knights. Obviously it isn't all about what just I want, though, there are other people who I've talked to in games that do agree [although sometimes no further than "KNIGHT OP", likely sarcastic, but there are people who are serious about it too]
    A problem for Archer is yeah, they bring nothing indispensable to a game.
    You have to have Knights, or you have nothing to consistently destroy stuff and counter enemy Knights. You have to have Builders, otherwise you can't defend, team can't get spec ammo and tricky environmental obstacles can't be surmounted. Meanwhile in Archer land, you're picked to fulfil niche roles like Knight versus Knight combat. You aren't all helping team-mates, you're supposed to be a mix of CQC attacking and supposed "support", plus "mobility", plus "utility", which never really seem to form a whole thing that your class is formed around, because Arrows, just regular Arrows, aren't the gameplay focus of your class.
    And while Builders counter Builders and Knights counter Knights and Archers counter Archers, Builders and Knights also counter Archers pretty damn easily; Builders chuck up their customary Stone defences with a simple wall, Knights Shield. There are workarounds in that for the Archer, but it needs SO MUCH EFFORT that you might as well be playing Builder or Knight. That's a sucky situation.

    A hypothetical here for the Archer being less useful, don't read if you believe me, but yeah.
    So you want to be useful as Archer in the field of battle? Ok, go CQC. So then you net a bunch of CQC kills as a PERFECT PRO WOMBO COMBO Archer, assuming it's in a tree infested area or right angled wall and not a flat space or very dark or in an enclosed area. From there, you want to move on to the objective, which is surrounded by a Stone Wall or Wood Wall. Now normally in this situation, as a Builder you could smash through the Wall, and as a Knight you could presumably loot your enemies for Bombs and destroy it or hammer away at the Wood. Seeing as Archer corpses bearing your special ammo of choice are obviously never in the area, you have to travel all the way back to base and get coin for your special Bomb/fire ammo assuming you have enough coin, then travel back to the front line again, in which fucking-around time either the enemy has respawned or not depending on how far away you are. Then you better fucking hope that one Bomb Arrow you had enough coin for is enough for their defences. Meanwhile a Knight could have gone in, with a high chance of scrounging Bombs from the other Knights or if not then having enough money for a lot of Bombs on the return journey, and also able to just flat out jab and slash the defences if they're wooden, or have any destructible Dirt/Gold/rock as a part of their build.

    So what you were saying, me being frustrated Archers can't earn coin: Yes, Knights need to take some form of damage over time from just basic Arrows [not drop like flies, just attrition], so that Knight isn't always the best, simplest ingame choice which it currently is, and so that Archers can get cash and be useful. Idea at the moment is that Shields are smaller in their hitbox so Archers can decide to aim for the legs or head even when in front of a Knight, a good Knight being able to block the Arrows intelligently as they come.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  19. I agree with Bobotype! Archers need an upgrade of some sort! Knights are 2op!
     
  20. franek123

    franek123 The architect of the royal castle. Donator Tester

    Messages:
    514
    Do you even play the game guys? Archers got buffed as motherfuckers last build.