Archer changes general

Obviously you haven't because I definitely responded to him on that topic as Lockpicks and Shield drop being a different thing to what he was thinking I meant, for instance he thought lockpicks would change the door's team affiliation rather than hold them open like i was suggesting. I proposed different ideas to the ones he shot down, and am continuing to modify them now.

Obviously I don't want to call them anything other than Archer. People calling the Archer a "support" to describe its gameplay is the problem at hand there. Saying "THEY'RE KAG ARCHERS" is going back to nomenclature and stating that a KAG archer can be anything. Which means that they don't have to be a Support either just because they're KAG Archers, also it makes more sense for an Archer class to act like a stereotypical Archer for new players' sake, just saying

I'll help out if you want, if you need a hand with it because i would like to be more helpful to the game community than just this so if you wouldn't mind some leg work/edits then you can PM me :)

Spoiler

Bro this is feedback is of great content and good to read, thank you for that. I don't think I agree with you though on Archer being unanimously agreed upon as a Support (read earlier in the thread), or Builders not going to the front lines to support, because I do see a lot of Builders that never ever leave defensive positions, but I also see a LOT of Builders frontline, making objectives accessible to their team members, usually Knights, to attack, and even building shops underground. When Archers go frontline and are at enemy defences, it isn't to support Knights in Knight v Knight combat as much as to net kills on unaware Builders or Archers hanging out on the walls. And they aren't there for that arrow-ladder thing anymore either. I don't think anyone would argue that a Builder frontline is there for kills [unless he has a Cata], he's there for letting his allies break in.

I know, but anyone can get bored of Builder and Knight in time. Having the third class of the game be around for what it's advertised for would be fun. Where to see Archers? In more effective in medium range combat, where Knights can still attack them, not causing Knights to drop like flies but definitely killing them if they hang around too long; plus in an infiltration role, sneakily attacking objectives from other angles, which their Grapple seems to be indicating as a play style at the moment anyway.

This has been considered a lot during the thread. My argument is that an Archer's basic kit is much weaker than the kit available to the Knight and Builder, which is reflected in the lower play-rates of Archer.

I know it would be difficult, but I'm sure something like Shiprekt also took a fair bit of work to put in play in that respect too, so it would definitely be worth it if it could add more reward for a skilled Archer, more depth to good Archery against lower skill Knights. Definitely considering both points of view on the Shield drop, Knights can dodge and evade Arrows by moving forwards, backwards, and jumping; as well, they have 4 Hearts available of Health. The biggest damage burst of basic arrows the Archer can deal is 3 Hearts in 3.9 seconds. So with that Shield downtime there aren't going to be Knights dropping like flies EVERYWHERE; Knights can decide to tank the damage while using the item.

Also, sorry, I only mean shield downtime in regards to briefly after the jab and slash animation for a second max, otherwise it's instantly available after you drop what you're carrying. But Shield downtime is more a Knight balance issue anyway so I'm glad you have a little love for the shieldplay idea.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2014, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2014 ---

>Legolas shot effective stun and penetration range increased to that of the Arrow itself, can reliably deal 1 damage to a Shielded Knight at range per one Legolas volley
>10 Arrows per bundle to prevent campy arrowspam, at a cost of 10 Gold per bundle, to offset greater damage capability given.
>Arrows damaging one way platforms, dirt, enemy ladders and enemy wood doors [assists your Archers against an enemy Archer camping behind a One Way Platform by gradually destroying it for every arrow that hits it
>Archer can crawl, and can crawl into one tile high spaces.
No further Knight changes are needed from there as Archer can hold its own at range, using its overcharge to do what the Knight's does.

 

Don't use bugs as a reason not to change things in the game. If the developers were that scared of bugs they never would have made the game at all.
And yes, they should be equal. You do not represent "we". Now, actually consider the ideas. By the way, this is a different set of suggestions to the ones before, not the same suggestions, if you bothered to read them, apart from the one-way-platform one. If you have any ideas on resulting balance issues, list them. "Knight is by choice invulnerable at long range except for water arrows" already seems like a balance issue to me.

Spoiler

>Arrows 10 per bundle, 10 Gold per bundle, one bundle on spawning
>Archer can crawl, reducing his hitbox to 1 tile high while doing so to crawl into small spaces
>The close-range legolas shot stun/penetrate increased to full range to make the Archer a more valuable "support" as well as a ranged threat
>Arrows destroy one-way platforms, dirt blocks, enemy ladders and wood doors over time with Arrow damage

 

I am honestly past discussing your suggestions right about now, and I get the feeling that everybody else has too. It is not that they are bad ideas, There are just too many, to much and I think archer is pretty much fine as is.

I made a poll.
http://poll.pollcode.com/56558471

 

It really, really isn't better having one class be weaker than the other. If you're playing a weaker class, you're less useful to your team than you could be and therefore a bad choice to play as, punishing the player's team for choices that should be punishment-free.
You say the classes are balanced because they do "fundamentally different things". And yet the Archer is bad at the fundamentally different thing which it does [Long Ranged attack is made useless by Knight Shields, mobility is also covered by the Knight--wallelevatoring, shield gliding, bomb jumping, waterslashing, Shield Surfing, slashdashing, etc.
The Archer CAN equal the Knight, and saying that the only way for the Archer to do that is "to be the Knight" is stupid. You can, for a start, make the things which do make the Archer "unique" at the moment actually useful. Even if the Archer can shoot arrows for 50 odd tiles, he can't damage a Shielded Knight without buying a special item. Even if the Archer has a grapple that can get over a huge wall, he can't do anything after getting past it and finding the enemy base is enclosed by a simple stone roof, unless he has his most expensive item.

Although I feel I've sufficiently explained, I've also gotten a LOT of criticism for "walls of text". That's why I'm trying to go minimalist. But if you say so:

Spoiler

Arrows 10 per bundle, 10 Gold per bundle: This one is presented because every time I suggest standard Arrows being more powerful, people's complaint [usually Auburn's] is that Archers will simply camp upon towers and spam Arrows. Arrows do indeed take a while to exhaust as an Archer, at maximum spam taking, what, 45 seconds to use up 30. With a maximum of 40 Arrows in the quiver/backpack [and I know KAG isn't known for realism, but 40 arrows rather than 120 is a bit more realistic, too] then Archers won't be able to just throw Arrows out continuously even if their backpack is full, and if camping in an area such as a ledge, or even a tower, will eventually have to go and get ammunition, so approaching an Archer defended wall won't meet an indefinite barrage. Knights knowing how to dodge will be at a distinct advantage as bad Archers will soon find they are powerless. In this state, one Arrow bundle=1.5 dead Knights if all Arrows hit.
>Crawling Archer An infiltration ability, reflecting the Archer's mobility and lightweight non-armour-wearing-or-stone-block-carryingness. Allows Archers to crawl into one tile spaces for Archer exclusive rat tunnels or into craters to escape Knights, and any space which isn't shored up fully in a base can expect Archers to slink into or out of it. Gives the Archer something else exclusive mobility-related to draw upon, just like Knights have elevatoring/slashdashing/waterslashing/shieldgliding/shieldsurfing/bomb jumping.
>Legolas Shot's stun and penetrate range extended to full! First arrow drops Shield and stuns on hit, next two can damage:While balanced out by fewer Arrows, this will give Archers the chance to take on a shielded Knight with their now more scarce basic Arrows and actually do damage. Archers at present can stun and even deal damage to a Shielded Knight at a fairly close range, the extension of this to full range actually fits with where the class should be. They will still be doing what they are doing now, and if they decide to abuse the ability to camp then their Arrow supply will run dry quickly. With the added Gold they get from inputting damage into a Knight before allies kill that Knight instantly, meaning they can buy more of their Special Arrows without ever having to change class to earn the required cash.
>Arrows destroy enemy ladders, enemy wood doors, one-way platforms and dirt: So you have an enemy camping Archer, and your Archers can't take him out because he's behind an Arrow-proof wooden force field? Now that force field is going to break if you pelt it for too long, let's say 6 or 7 Arrows, and then your team can kill him and continue its push unmolested. This also allows Archers to destroy the simplest blocks that stop them from doing anything if they do attempt to use their much-paraded mobility, such as one way platform traps and one-way overhangs which they currently have no way of circumventing without special ammunition.

All of these changes are intended to make the Archer better at his "unique" stuff, while keeping it balanced and not leading to OP early Beta-tier Archers.

But TL;DR, Legolas Shot's 11-tile Shield penetrate increased to 50-tile, arrows down to 10 per bundle for 10 Gold, minor Arrow block destruction, and crawling into 1 tile spaces.

I'm suggesting new ones as others are shot down, like with Trumbles' or Geti's reasonable reasons. If there are too many ideas for you, feel free to disregard the previously brought up ones and address these four. If you can't be fucked writing about 4 ideas' pros and cons, then ok, an ideas forum is not the place for you. Thank you for your poll, though.
Your opinion is that Archer is fine [balanced], mine is that it isn't [balanced]. Facts are what's important, and stacking the facts it seems there's an imbalance at present. So then, the real question is, what harm or good will these 4 ideas do?

 

Dodging a solid grouping of 3 Arrows every 4 seconds is entirely possible, which is what Archers are expected to do with Knight slashes, precooked Bombs etc. Move forwards, backwards or jump as appropriate to dodge, and they can't do it again for another 4 seconds.

Contradictin yourself bro. Having to stop firing because you're out of Arrows and go back to the shop is exactly what stops Arrow spam, encouraging intelligent use of Arrows. At the moment looking for Arrows is barely even a factor cause it takes 45 seconds to use up 30.

Archer needs Gold with which to buy a "day"'s supply of Arrows. If the Archer is so good that no amount of dodging can save you, bring along your own Archer. Also the very fact that the Archer has to stop firing to get more ammo means there's a short but not tiny lull where you can do what you want, whether it's go past him, attack his Archer Shop as well as him, whatever. Every shot on you he misses is an Arrow that can't be replaced because it didn't earn Gold, until he has to go all the way back to the spawn tent.

Against other Archers so as not to use excessive Arrows; also, when playing the current style of sneak-in-hits-during-Knight-v-Knight-combat, to make sure you aren't kill-stealing or using Arrows that aren't needed if your ally is going to net the kill.

Okay, that's fair enough. It's just that Knights also possess a lot of niche mobility abilities, so another for the "mobile" class wouldn't hurt. It would be more of an infiltration and low-profile-against-other-wall-based-Archers thing. How about a different suggestion: Archers swimming faster in Water? Currently Knights rule the waves with waterslashing, and the one place Grapple is most useless is the water. So yeah, if escaping Knights on land is okay, it's Water that's the issue.

Well it seems a bit of overkill to be using a Bomb Arrow or Fire Arrow to deal with a single One-Way Platform an enemy is hiding behind to snipe you, or that's preventing you traversing an enemy Builder's construction. But yes, I guess you're right on about Dirt.

Auburn's proof crawling's cons outweigh its pros and convinced me personally. Same with dirt blocks being broken.
My new suggestions are >10 Arrows per 10 Gold or spawn, >Legolas shot penetrate increasing from 11 tiles to 50, >Archers should swim the fastest of all the classes [in keeping with what seems to be a theme of "mobility"] and >Arrows damage One-way Platforms, enemy Wood Doors and enemy Ladders.

 

When you fall you sometimes get stunned and that is very annoying as archer when you are chased by a knight! I think it would be awesome if they removed the fall-stun for archers!

I also think archers would get a great "ninja-effect" if it the stun was removed. The archers is like a cat and always lands on its feet!

Please comment!

COMMENT

 

Nerf bombs maybe? They are too strong . I get one hit all the time by them.

Edit: read a bit of your little argument. And I agree with.............

Spoiler

FROGGGGIEEEYYYY

Anyway, it seems like archers are weaker on all battle-based fronts. The archers takes so much to kill a knight, you must risk getting close, sticking there while Legolasing and then do it to their shield and hit all 3, and then repeat - just to kill one. Whereas, a knight can just run up to an archer and stab their face of, one slash kills them.

Obviously, archers are more of a support as they can easily take down structures and stun enemies for their knights to steal all the kills and then say "omg archer u have like 2k 35d, y u suk". As an archer, you need to get relatively close, shoot a bunch of bomb arrows and time it all well or face having to go back to square one and start saving again. Whereas knights can just go in, drop a keg, go away. It's only if there is an army of knights in the way where this cannot happen, because neither archers or builders can ever stop a kegged-knight.

Thus, archers are basically useless as everything they can do can easily be done with a knight.

Also, it's fucking annoying playing them because knights just stomp all over you and you have to play so careful all the time. I often just sit there shooting at the enemy base to hold them back for more explosives to come, and a random knight will just fly out of the sky and I'm dead. Or a bomb.

 

Ummm, as you can see by my post, yes.

 

archers r 2 op now

 

Shut up, noob knight!

 

4 archers camping on one tower spamming legolas shots...

 

It's the only class I play. And I play this game quite often.

Let's just throw numbers into this because I'm a maths genius.

Knights before: 1 - Archers before: 0.1
Knights now: 0.8 - Archers now 0.5

Umm, maybe balance a bit more?

One knight with one bomb...

I'm not saying archers should be able to do all that knights can do, I'm just saying that they should be more able. Currently, the total opposite is true, knights can do (almost) everything an archer can do. The only plus is ranged combat (easily stopped by a shield) and the ability to move at fast speeds (except knights move much faster in water). The keg would kill the builder if he was close enough to build anything before the team can get in.

Bombs aren't easy to see coming when its a 15v15 game and you've got to concentrate on 5 knights at once and whether they have a bomb or not. One cooks and you miss them and it's game over. Also, yes, knights falling from the sky are pretty random. You just get a knight with like 50 bombs, they go to space, zoom out, and aim for you. I'm not going to be strafing 24/7 especially when I'm taking cover from enemy archers.

 

where did you get those numbers, the casual store?

how do you think they should farther be balanced? kegs easily too off backs from arrows, arrows can't be slashed, archers still have water arrows, and bombs are 25 coins.