General Knight Changes

Yeah, that's the big problem..

I can still bowl them over flat/descending ground pretty well, but after doing it once, it'll break into a million pieces if i try again w/ the same mine.

@Geti make mines more resistant to impact pls.

 

*COUGH* https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/increased-mine-resistance-to-environmental-damage.18507/

*COUGH* *COUGH* *COUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*

#irony

 

I was wondering about this, I think i'd seen it happen before in game and wondered why it happened. Do you know how many blocks they need to fall for the spikes to deploy? I got a nice kill by throwing one at approaching archers the other day, but if I had been about 1 block off they wouldn't have deployed, and I wasn't exactly sure how high up I was at the time.

 

I don't have an exact amount and it varies depending upon the initial momentum that is given to it by the player, so it would be hard to find out unless the values are easily accessible.

 

@Duplolas at this point, I disagree with some of your suggestions just because you make them.

You used to be really, really, reeeeally spammy with them. And what gets me, is that you're so proud of it.

 

@infinitito, I must non-cuntily thank you for your sentiment, but 60 hours of play isn't really "inexperienced". I've played for about 6 months now, that isn't "inexperienced", although I could do with some modding help. Thank you for your strong common sense though

Ignoring all the other retarded nonsense. I don't think it's all black and white--Please stop projecting, buddy. Also, I don't want 2 Archers to be able to stop 4 knights alone and was arguing that THEY CANNOT.
I was purposely simplifying the strengths and weaknesses of the classes to cut down post length. I also already mentioned the fucking grapple, learn to read. If you want to go in depth more, we can also talk about how that Grapple is useless in freefall, water, and tight spaces, while the Knight's sword and Shield makes him superior in freefall, water, and tight spaces. Sure, the Archer has a stun, which only works at an 11 tile range on a class with 2 HP (which is so low because the Archer was designed as a RANGED class not a close combat class]. And that stun takes 4 seconds to charge, which is something else you conveniently ignored, while the Knight's instakill-speed-boost-giving Double Slash takes 2.x seconds.
Talking slash is also retarded. Doubleslash is shorter than Legolas Shot, so even there Knights have a better DPS than Archers.

This is what Duplolas actually believes.
Then why not shut the fucking fuck up?
Give reasons why my ideas are bad, or shut your fucking face. I AM willing to listen to you if you use REASONS and nothing else. Of course nobody wants to listen to insults, this is the Internet, I could find them anywhere else.

@Verzuvius I actually think Builders are pretty well balanced, doing exactly what their class says on the tin, although they could probably use some sort of minor close-combat buff so they don't always have to be so scared of frontline building. Frontline Builders are a great way of ending endless stalemates, but venturing into an endless Knight bomb-filled melee in no man's land is pretty scary.

@Auburn, I'll say once again: Not all of KAG is about DPS but that doesn't mean it isn't an important factor. When we are talking about class balance, DPS IS important, because it's a tool in their kit. Also since both you and Geti have told me before the point of "support" Archer is to "keep up a constant attack of arrows at an enemy Knight", you need to make up your mind whether KAG involves spam or not.
What is needed is for Archers to receive faster swimming in Water. Builders could, I don't know, get cheaper Boats or something. It's still silly that Knights can also bowl bombs in water, too. Water needs to be a mild hazard where Boats are quite necessary [but not to the point that a game is turtled]. Maybe health should just decrease very slowly in Water regardless of if you're surfaced [effort of swimming while carrying four bombs, a Shield, and armour/stone blocks?]

 

Spoiler

I give reasons why your ideas are bad. I also give reasons why you are bad.

You seem not to listen to both, which is why you already lost the debate.

Remember it is...

Spoiler

 

@bobotype You know what? You're right. Implementing your suggestions would fix archer vs. knight combat so that both classes would have an equal chance at a good K/D. Let's suppose they are implemented. What happens? The entire game breaks. This isn't Super Smash Bros., you don't pick one class with the objective of killing one other player. In CTF the idea is to capture the flag. Long range archer combat (in the way you suggest) leads to stalemates as both teams equalise.

Spoiler: Spoiler Hint

The reason knights are better generally is that they move combat forward. Archers defend points and can kill a few knights in CQC but they die easily. If you keep dying as an archer, switch to a knight. KAG teams only need a few archers at once so play to the situation. Some classes are just better in certain situations. The reason Trumbles etc. can be archers constantly is that they have a wide enough skill set to apply themselves to more situations.

It's not unfair. Knights beating you constantly in a situation is not unfair. You objective is not to win every skirmish, but is to capture the flag. The reason you are losing is because you seem to be unable to judge what is going on and make choices accordingly.

What is unfair is a tactic that always wins and is pretty much unstoppable. What happens when one of these arises? It gets patched. Speaking of patches, do you know why dirt erosion and kegs were nerfed so much? They cause stalemates, just like pretty much every one of your suggestions.

You seem to be thinking "If this gets fixed, I'll be able to kill more knights!", and you will. What you will not be able to do is win a match. Your suggestions promote simple play with lack of coordination with your teammates. Solo attacks and rushes are hard to pull off, but archers being able to hold off any group of knights will stop any of that.

Spoiler: Spoiler Hint

In KAG there are things you can do that will seem futile, as pretty much every tactic can be countered. That's why you need to counter the enemies' tactics while applying your own, and hope for an opening that will allow you to crush them. Camping Archer Spam should never counter Massive Knight Horde Attack. No one cares if kegs can be shot off your back, but that plus heavy makes them too hard to use effectively. It's about the whole game, not a simple "Knights are better than archers in combat". If knights are better, use a knight. Need a tunnel? Switch to builder and build one. Got coins? Use the archer's triple bomb shot to open up the flag.

Spoiler: Spoiler Hint

If you want to use archer constantly, you'd better get training. If you try that, you will die. A lot. But, if you think that you being a pro archer would really help the team then go for it. Just don't come crying here when you lose. If you keep losing it's your fault for playing the game wrong. I found this out a while back, but I liked archer so much that I said "Screw that!" and trained til I could use the archer proficiently enough to overcome those problems. That way I get the most fun out of the game. I say one tactic beats another, but that's on a basic level. If you are good enough you can do way more.

There's a reason people go on about Trumbles or Gurin or whoever. They screw the rules of KAG and change the game. If you want to do that, it's done with practice and skill, not whinging until you get some changes that make the game easier. What's better: having the game a bit easier and a lot more boring and fitting in as a regular combatant or making everyone go "Holy crap, it's bobotype!" as they try to flee and you pulverise them?

 

DPS DOES matter when we're talking class balance. If I bring up the fact that Archer has the lowest attack rate in a discussion about balance, and point it out as yet another weakness compared to a strength in Knight, you can't say it doesn't matter, full stop. You say KAG is about timing. How the fuck do you honestly think DPS doesn't affect timing if you can't actually make your attacks without an enforced gap?
What you said about timing with an Archer hitting the Knight's Shield? That's hugely relevant to DPS, which actively affects your timing because if you miss a shot you can't make another one for (x) time because of your class's DPS. Damn, your ignorance is stunning on this.

Well at the moment water is a knights' playground and an annoyance for other classes. A slow health drain like say half a heart every 5 seconds would be fine enough to make people want to get boats IMO. What do we even have boats for at the moment? A forward respawn/ammo sponge? We can balance it, it doesn't have to be however bad it was in early beta.

@Duplolas come back when you learn how to read. Apparently you still only function in pictures.

I'm going to ignore all the condescending bull you said about my skill, which has already been discussed in depth by some choice retards, and focus on the core ideas of your post.
"The entire game breaks"-- It clearly doesn't. It does mean that Archers get kills more frequently. This leads to more people playing Archer, which leads to the other team employing counter-Archers or counter-Archer Knight and Builder strategies. Now, what the Archer has at the moment is the tools to play the same as Knights-- Bomb Arrows, Water Arrows, and a grapple to get them to objectives quickly-- but not enough Gold earned from kills to be able to consistently fund these as the Knight can fund his Bombs. With more kills in the Archer's side of the court, Bomb Arrows are more frequent, and an Archer can do exactly what Knights do now: Push forward quickly and cap the flag. If they encounter Archers in base opposing them, they try and snipe them out. If that Archer is perched behind 1 way platforms? That's why I suggest Arrows dealing damage to platforms over time to allow reach. In this way, Archers are able to accomplish everything a Knight can gameplay wise, in different ways.
The game, thus, is not "broken", but balanced. Knights still have an equally important role, and can still dodge Arrows or tank damage as necessary, and are balanced against Archers. Archers also have heavy limitations on their Arrows, preventing all-day spam and sending low skill Archers back to base frequently, strongly rewarding a Knight who knows how to dodge. Archers provide some kills to clear the way for their Knights, taking out opposing Archers and Knights on the defence. Nothing really changes except that the Archer gets a bigger share of ingame kills.
I still don't see what people's problem is with this other than having to adapt to something new.

 

the counter-archer tactics is projectile spam from distance and never trying to engage.

been there done that, in every iteration of classic and beta. if you want to argue over that, you are wrong period

It does'nt matter if you bring any statements considering your look on the balance if you cannot back it up. Most people trying to criticize you (because criticizing you is kind of impossible as you have even disregarded developer's input when he had pointed out that you hadn't known basic stuff about the game) are at least somewhat-not-horrible at the game. The perk that you won't be considered by anyone here to possess if your reply to any question regarding how much you've played is "some time, I've already mastered KAG except I don't know basic stuff. also stop stalking me internet bullies".

the more you call people retards, the closer you bring yourself to being warned and the thread to being closed.

cheers

 

WHICH IS WHY I AM SUGGESTING ARROW LIMIT WHICH STOPS 10 MINUTE PROTRACTED ARCHER CONFLICTS [of arrow spam]
UHHHHHHHH WHY DOES NOBODY READ

Edit: In response to the belated edit of your post, I've had many people here spout ad hominem for ages [especially Arcrave], and I've seen them receive no warning [unless it's done behind the scenes or something]. If I get told off for calling someone like Duplolas a retard after he's admitted to doing nothing here but insult me, that will be a delicious double standard indeed.
Please tell me how getting lots of kills with grapplestomp/triple bomb jumping is "basic stuff".

Please also tell me how not liking people stalk me on the Internet is somehow a bad thing on my behalf.

*dismissive variation of bye*

 

arrow limit would not stop anything lmao. it's not about being able to hit timings when they run out of arrows. it's about not being able to maintain constant aggression to prevent the other team from reinforcing with infinite mats


EDIT: also regarding grapple, it is very useful in closed spaces and when falling :^)

 

Your complaint, was about arrow spam. Clearly, having a stronger limit to Arrows, would *stop* Arrow spam. Don't try and argue black is white.

 

my complaint was about anti-archers, saying that projectile spam is the counter-tactic
as I have explained already, the problem with archers is not only the spam

please stop doing that entire sophism against me since I'm not really keen of it :^). if you say some stupid shit like "black is not white" while it has nothing to do with what you are talking about, it is not really welcomed

also I don't like how you are claiming that some stuff would "*clearly*" happen if you haven never actually tested it or seen it used in the actual game. Really cut the sophism dude. Repeating the same thing louder does not make it true

 

The other counter-tactic is also dodging. You know, dodging Arrows until the Archer's 3 Legolas shots run out. What other problems are there with Archers, exactly? Would you like us to take away Arrows so they can't attack at range anymore? Range OP, yeah?

The really rich part is you attempting to discredit me, now, by saying that I'm using your off-topicness to discredit you. This would actually make sense if you were presenting coherent counterarguments in the first place, rather than just insulting my method of discourse. While we're on this topic, the whole "hi guys I'm glib and I make the other guy look irrational by acting all carefree, cheers, :^)" thing is a persuasive tactic, and nothing to do with what you are talking about yourself, so if you're going to criticise me you can just flat out stop all that bullshit.

You are exactly guilty of the "I can make predictions about something w/out testing" accusation, as well. Huge, huge hypocrisy. Like this for example:

But hey, hypocrisy seems to be the order of the day. Drop argumentative tactics to accuse me of using them. Accuse me of doing something while doing it yourself. Can't you just talk about the fucking game? I have to repeat the topic because it seems you want to discuss anything but.

 

Pretty sure EJ knows the game in and out since he has been playing for 3 years...

 

Here we go again, Duplolas posting his baby pictures and saying I haven't played enough to meet his standards.
By the way dipshit, that's time on the forums, not time ingame.
No, honestly, fuck, you're a moron.
Is anybody here going to talk about Knights?
Knights: Highest DPS, Highest Health, terrain destruction and Shield and slash mobility/defence against Archer ranged attack in basic kit
Archers:Lowest DPS, lowest HP, no terrain destruction and mobility item in basic kit, basic attack needs ammo, ranged attack
=imbalance in favour of Knight

Edit: Nope, read it again, Duplolas is still wrong too. We were talking about testing something in the game, not time spent playing the game. Duplolas was, sadly, never taught to read.

 

First off. R00D.

Second, yeah, it doesn't mean time in-game, but I am pretty sure that he hasn't just been on the forums for 3 years and never played the game :/

Also, I am pretty sure he is a pre-update tester... As in, you know, he knows what is coming in the next update before the public does...

Third,

Actually builder is the lowest DPS. He does 1/2 a heart of damage per hit. Has the lowest mobility. Need materials to build.

I think that because of that, builder's DPS should be upped to 1 heart per damage. He should get a grapple like archer. He should also be able to build with out materials.

It is the only way to make him equal to knight and archer in terms of offensive power.