Knight Combat Discussion

Do not post in this thread until you have read this and understand the purpose of the discussion;
You must post in a format that explains what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT be [changed/fixed/added/removed/synonyms/synonyms]. Do not be an ass- try to be as constructive as possible.

Please come into this thread with the understanding that sometimes it is indeed best to leave the creation of the game to the Devs, and you should respect this. It is OKAY to express your opinion without being a pompous ass, though.
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What I Want To See

• Double Slashing brought back without the need for an enemy to be present.
• Shield bashing impact reduced and the direction in which someone goes when bashed; I bashed someone and they went behind me instead of back in the opposite direction.
• I wish it was once again possible for a seasoned Knight to take on two or more Knights.
• "Dashing"?

What I Don't Want To See

• Clashing/parrying - fixing it will not make it fun, I'd like to see it removed.

edit: Gliding has kind of grown on me now. I also liked someone's suggestion about "dashing".. Regardless, the clashing has been tweaked in Build 203 so everyone should try it out now.

 

Everything but knights not having gliding I agree with. Just give archers an even better glide than knights. Builders don't need glide, they build ladders.

 

To be honest I like the concepts implace. The double slash without hitting people allowed to much charge capability, as it is now you have to plan when your going to charge up because you might get stabbed and interrupted by the other knight behind his shield. When ever I picture two knights fighting it is always linier in a hall way. Perhaphs that is why I do agree with the concepts that have been put there, but then again, a lot of the fighting is jumping around swining radomly 5v5 or somthing. Clashing is good, but why shield if attacking does the same thing? That's my input on it anyway. 9

 

clashing rox sox. its actually made it so laggy fights have become bearable. i dont use gliding that much but when i do its really handy.

What i want to see :

even more balanced knight fighting, and maybe some sort of skill attack that can go in both directions if you get mobbed
( this would have to be balanced or itd just be a spam fest of course )

more variety of weapons with pros and cons

What i dont want to see :

knights still being able to hop around and just spam slash, its kind of annoying not too bad though with clash now.

 

I like that they the archers can scale walls, while knights, to a degree, can scale chasms. Makes both classes unique, and possible when you build defenses as builder, that you make the defenses espescially good against a specific class. I too, wish that you can go more rambo as knight, as i find the combat in 200 to be more frustrating, since numbers, frankly, is all that matters. It should not be that way. The biggest problem is the abundance of crowdcontrol the knight have, without doing any "hard" actions. By this i mean shildbashing, slashing, headjumping, parrying and so forth. This makes you dead meat against any numerical superior enemy, as you will engage, and die stunlocked. I dont think that removing moves is the way, i personally like gliding, as it takes some training to do efficient, and it makes you extremely vulnerable to archers and enemy knights.
The Points: I like gliding, and think its a nice niche move.
I would like all the CC to be scaled down, and instead give one of the follwing:
One more heart.
Better range on sword. (seriously, sometimes i stand in the face of archers, and cant hit them, while they kill me with zerocharge arrows)
Or another move, i cant come up with an idea atm, but something to make combat more diverse.

 

Clashing is terrible, even aside from all the glitches. Seriously clashing means jabs beat everything now. You can't block and return jab because their jab is likely to parry AND hit you at the same time. You can't slash them because that's will get parried.

Soft stun is terrible because stun locking happens even more now, it feels really unintuitive and unexciting to the player. Instead of actually being knocked back with a damage animation you simply can't do anything.

Jeez just take it back to the way it was before this build. I know lots of people are saying this builds fighting is "ok" but does anyone prefer it?

I'm fine with gliding, archer lost being "most mobile class" a while ago. They are spam turrets and nothing more.

 

I don't like the stun lock of the previous build, but I do like the fact there's no bloody clashing.

I like soft stun because it means you can't spam attack but you can do something. To prevent getting stun locked in soft stun: moving and shielding should be possible after being hit, so you dont get stabbed against a wall into oblivion. Charge attacks should not be clashed with anything, the only way to stop a charge is to shield and bear the attack or stab before they finish charging. Shield bashes should help separate enemies and knock people off cliffs, positional fighting. This would give necessary power to the single knight to go on rampages again without it being too dependent on numbers.

And remove the damn clashing.

IMO, of course.

 

When knights fight maybe the swords can break that stops knights having more power and equal to other classes

 

• I don't like that knight combat is now based on numbers. I used to be a pretty good knight (I thought?). But with the current build, I can't even take on more than one player at a time because of the sword clashes, and because of the new sword slash mechanic. Two people can easily take me out now. There are no good knights anymore, there are only good bomb throwers.

Fixes:
The point of these fixes are to make knight combat more skill based.

- Re-add the double sword slash. The difference between two knights can be their timing on this ability.

- Add a quick stun feature. Maybe a quarter second stun after hitting an enemy shield with a jab. It would allow for quick counter attacks, if you're expecting it. Also could determine difference between knights.

- More intuitive blocking. This one is a little harder to explain in words, stay with me. A knights slash is in vertical fashion, straight top to bottom. Holding your shield upwards could block the slash, stun the enemy for that quarter second again, and prevent him from slashing again. It could also allow for another counter of a quick jab. This would also mean that blocking a slash straight on would get you hit.

-Prevent players from using small 'hops' while charging. It allows for weird placements and knights are all over the place. This also means that they can be dodged, if done correctly. Allowing for even more skill.

 

I'll just copypaste:

What I Want To See

• Double Slashing brought back without the need for an enemy to be present.
• Shield bashing impact reduced and the direction in which someone goes when bashed; I bashed someone and they went behind me instead of back in the opposite direction.
• I wish it was once again possible for a seasoned Knight to take on two or more Knights.

What I Don't Want To See

• Clashing/parrying - fixing it will not make it fun, I'd like to see it removed.

However, gliding is too fun to be taken out, and it makes moving overall so much smoother, especiall with the easy fall death. I don't find any issue in it while playing as an archer either, but I see nothing bad in adding more manuever features to him too.

 

Sadly, I don't think any of these things will get changed, aside from maybe the point about shield bashing and also the point about a single knight being able to take on 3 or 4 knights with skill.

 

What I don't like:
Clashing. There are several reasons why I don't like clashing

1. It is a viable alternative for using your shield - just sit there spamming stab and you have a new shield
2. It's too noob-friendly - what I mean by this, is that essentially it doesn't encourage newer players to learn how to fight or fight properly; because just sitting there stabbing is such an easy and viable way to fight, that's all that they do! It completely counters any skill or experience from the opposing knight.
3. You can't counter it in certain situations - say for example in a tunnel fight when shield bashing is extremely hard (assuming a roof over your heads), the only real way to counter it is to sit their stabbing and clashing back! You may try and jump over them in a field situation - though this is easily protected by simply stabbing in the direction that someone is jumping over you
4. It isn't realistic (more of a minor complaint!) and adds no fun! - somehow I don't think that knights sat there in medieval times stabbing each other and clashing every time (though, it's safe to say that knights couldn't glide in medieval times as well - unless they were Dark Knights ;))!

 

I think the tunnel fighting example really hits home what is wrong with clashing. But if they are so eager to keep in clashing, I did think of an alternative, shield ramming, which would ram your shield at the enemy next to you, but you'd require to charge it.

 

Ohhh I just got excited about the idea of double-tapping left/right to do a 4 block dash and then a shield bash to send the opponent flying back a few blocks, more or less, depending on if they have their shield up. Lots extra if they dash against each other :)

Perhaps limit it to flat ground (4 flat blocks or something) and not have it do damage.

 

Yeah I agree that that is a solution... but I feel that adding systems to combat, to fix other systems of combat, to fix another system of combat just adds to the complexity and confuses everything more. Keep it simple and fun!

EDIT: Ahhh they've added a new build, I haven't checked it out yet but from everyone's saying, it seems a lot better!

 

I think shielding a quick attack should momentarily stun the attacker. That way the shield is better than parry/clash, plus it also gives combat some control.

Jab beats Slash (while charging)
Slash beats Shield
Shield stuns Jab

Now you have strategic melee combat between knights.

 

I don't like some of what the original post says. Yeah, I know you're saying this stuff in the interest of making knight combat better, but you're obviously not thinking about the other classes - most importantly the poor little archer.

I've recently played a few matches in the Rapid Death Match server. There, you get to choose either Knight or Archer.
And 90% of all the people who play choose Knight. Do you know why? Because Knights kill everything - and they beat archers easily. Far too easily in my opinion.

Sure, if a Knight is taken off guard by an archer, they get shot down, possibly killed if their health is low, but Archers never stand a chance of running away!
Why is this? Because Knights have just as much mobility, if not MORE.

Mobility of Knight vs. Archer
Running speed
--Same for both classes
Jumping Height
--Same for both classes
Jump Length
--Knights win. Gliding makes it really easy to go long distances.
Flinch resistance
--Same regarding getting hit, but Knights can shove anyone out of the way with their shield and keep going without a problem.

Knights are already capable of overtaking Archers in a chase. Recommending the double-slash anywhere, which I KNOW can boost speed if used right, and "Dashing?"

Kill me now. Or rather, kill off all the archers in the game now. They're not going to last very long anyway.

 

That's an issue with the small maps, 20 people limit and 1 bomb in spawn Nighthawk, not a game issue actually.

 

Nighthawk, seriously try massing archers together, and tell me archers still suck. Knights can't do shit against it, especially without any bombs, they'll be massacred. No-one goes archer because those maps are small, where knights are actually better suited to the map. One of the maps is a bit bigger. You almost ALWAYS see at least 2 archers in the match, at the very least one on each side, if not more. Yeah ok, not in the same proportion as knights, but look at a defending team in a normal match, shit loads of archers and few knights.

 

Yeah - I agree with the fact that defending teams prefer archers, but there's an obvious reason for that.

Range.

Archers have much easier access to it than knights, who have to throw bombs. If a team is running out of units, but they have a huge castle to hide inside of, what's the most logical thing to do? Shoot sharp sticks at people from a range.

If there are infinite units, however, the majority will still choose Knights, because Knights can do the most damage with the least amount of resources.

You're also right about massing Archers together. They kick butt. Absolutely. But that doesn't happen nearly as often because most people don't see a reason to choose archer. My guess is they think like this:

"Hm... I'm totally broke. I can hit trees for half a minute and try to make accurate enough shots to kill from a range, or I can charge into battle, take one or two foes with me, then respawn with no time penalty and do it again. Let's do THAT!"

Archers need a reason to be played. Archers need some love. And I think the one thing that they need is a chance to RUN AWAY. It only makes sense, you know? Why would a huge, armored beserker be capable of overtaking the more lithe archer?