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The old wall jump [1239]

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Kububv, Oct 16, 2014.

Mods: Rainbows
  1. Kububv

    Kububv Drill Rusher
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    30
    I want you back *Jackson 5 music* But in all seriousness, I feel like the old wall jump didn't need to be nerfed in the way it did. For one, all the TDM maps were designed around the old wall jump height, so unless someone wants to modify all the TDM maps to fit the new wall jump height it would just be better to have the old one back. Also, I don't think the mobility loss across all classes really did much. Knight's movement was already nerfed, archers have grapple so the only time the new wall jump affects them when they're charging a shot, and builders can just build over walls.

    Maybe this is a silly idea, but I personally don't find this to be too far-fetched of an idea. I believe there are some people out there who would support this change as well, so I'm confident these aren't just my personal rantings. ::):
     
    Pharphis, yellowwhy1, Tern and 5 others like this.
  2. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    I'm on both sides of this argument. I loved the wall jump/climb in the TDM maps but in a CTF map, it was way too over powered. Would there be a way to add the wall jump/climb back into TDM, without too much code for the devs.
     
    Blue_Tiger and kodysch like this.
  3. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I hate the wallclimb nerf. I originally thought it meant the infinite climb glitch was removed, but it turned out that AND regular wallclimbing were nerfed. Nerfing regular wallclimbing makes no sense as the maps are designed around it.
     
    kodysch likes this.
  4. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    It was meant to give Builders a little more power to stop Knight zerg rush tactics, since Knights could get up incredibly high walls even without the infinite shield glide climbing (and without bombs).
     
    JoshTG, Blue_Tiger, NinjaCell and 2 others like this.
  5. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I will admit that done of the tdm maps are a bit TOO archer friendly, but I think it's more of a map problem than a balance problem. Although knights can get anywhere, there are some places that they can't get to easily. Most of the maps can probably be fixed by removing just a few blocks.
    I really would not like to see a comeback of the old wall climbing simply because I like the teamwork that the new wall climbing encourages. Arrow ladders are incredibly useful, as one arrow can help a few knights over a wall, turning the tide of a game, and vice versa, a smaller wall can actually do something other than be useless. Also, I can personally say that if I tried hard enough, I've gotten over just about any wall or terrain obstacle I've seen, so there's always the argument of "git gud scrub".
     
    Blue_Tiger and NinjaCell like this.
  6. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    You make a good point, the stalemates teamwork is certainly a good addition to the game.
     
    Pharphis and kodysch like this.
  7. Hella

    Hella The Nightmare of Hair Global Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,655
    I don't quite understand why some good changes should be reverted purely because some maps (which still work pretty well) were built around some poor mechanics. Being someone who didn't play regularly for a long while, I've gotten back into KAG with the recent builds, because now I don't seem to be invariably stomped by enemy knights in any other class. It's getting more balanced, and if the maps now have some highlighted flaws, then surely it would be a much more sensible idea to change the few pixels that will correct that problem than to throw back to being constantly dominated by a couple of enemies because they can run over virtually anything?
     
  8. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Again, another pointless retort piece of witty insight by Klokinator.

    Bad map design is to blame for many problems that KAG has. (Placing the flag right next to spawn comes to mind.) There seems to be a bit more of an effort recently to get the community involved in making new maps, so that's good. Hopefully we will be able to get some of the newer maps added to the official servers.
     
    Auburn and DatNobby like this.
  9. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I like how you say this like it's a serious fact, yet placing the flag ON TOP of the spawn in Classic made for a much funner experience than placing it away from the spawn.

    Of course, the real issue is that there's a flat respawn rate in classic instead of a variable rate based on where you die, whether near or far from your spawn.
     
  10. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Just cause a map is good on Classic doesn't make it good on the current build. It's not like they have widely different mechanics or anything. I agree entirely with your point your majesty. All iterations of KAG are one and the same.
     
    Juaro, Blue_Tiger, Waky and 2 others like this.
  11. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Stalemates > games which are shorter than the build phase.
     
  12. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Problem: Games end too quickly because nobody builds good bases or has time to. Is the solution...
    A. Nerf all movement so that people have more difficulty climbing towers and incidentally happen to break map design in the process? (That is, nearly every map seeing as the game was constructed around a set of movement mechanics and has been for months and months)
    B. Increase build time so people can build bigger and better towers?
    C. Find another way to make towers last longer, like making blocks take more hits to destroy?
     
  13. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    B - No, 3 minutes is enough time wasted.
    C - If a knight can push back archers for 10 seconds, he can do it for 15.
     
  14. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    IIRC, in classic, they would have stalemated forever as well, except there were almost always tickets or a timer. The only time I saw flag caps were because one team was clearly better and they won early on. Games back then were just limited to factors other than capturing the flag. In release, with the new wall-climbing, a team wins if that team is better than the other. Plain and simple. With the old wall-climbing and mobility, one single knight floats over defenses, find the weak point, and starts drilling with bombs there, abusing the unstoppable terrain advantage he undoubtedly has against the other team to keep killing and get more bombs until he has the flag, then he gets out. Games were won by one person being good and being slightly better than everyone else. It spoke nothing about the team as the knight didn't need any backup.

    Also, it's cute how you're trying to pin the blame on bad buildings , not on every knight being an OP killing machine ignoring buildings in the first place.
     
    NinjaCell and Klokinator like this.
  15. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    B does not address the fact that Builders had serious difficulties being aggressive and making front-line defenses.
    C would just lead to more of the stalemates that you hate so much.
     
  16. kodysch

    kodysch Bison Rider Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    We all talk about one knight being able to win a game because they can float over defenses, but there where multiple things done to reduce mobility of the knight besides wall climbing. When wall climbing was nerfed it was nerfed for every class. I don't think giving back 1 block more of wall climbing will make the old super knight come back, it will just make the maps work well and add a little bit more movement to battle.
     
  17. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Archer has grapple, builder can use trap blocks and/or ladders to get over obstacles. I understand that infinite wall jump was a thing, but was outdone by archers anyway whereas wall climb was not. The reduced glide only really effects cross-map catapults.
     
  18. Kububv

    Kububv Drill Rusher
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    30
    @Auburn I'm not trying to suggest that the old infinite wall climb mechanic would be added back in. I don't want that either. I would just like the original wall climb height back.
     
  19. kodysch

    kodysch Bison Rider Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    I don't understand what you're trying to say.
     
  20. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    You were saying it wasn't a huge change in terms of knight mobility because archers and builders were also affected - but both have (pretty much) free ways of getting over said wall. Knight now needs arrow ladders or bombs.
     
Mods: Rainbows