BUILD 1337 - Back on Track

ARCHER:

Faster.

KNIGHT:

Stronger.
More hearts.
Easier to play as.
Has a shield.

 

If you take all those faulty pros into account, Archer and Knight are about equal. Only thing is, you forgot that Archers can attack more conveniently from a range, scale towers without having to bombjump, burn wooden structures, and deal immense damage to stone towers and siege equipment with bomb arrows - more than bombs can do.

Knights, on the other hand, can deal damage to multiple players with bombs, have higher damage output at close range, are less threatened by fall damage and fall-stun and are not limited by ammunition with their basic attacks.

You left out so many points it's horrifying. There are more than the ones I covered but I'm not going to wrack my brain coming up with every possible thing.

I'm a fan of Archers and don't like seeing them nerfed in any way, but I will deal with it and not use faulty logic to try and make a point.

 

Its not use arguing over it without making the full list of all features and qualities of both classes. And because I think im happy with the balance right now I dont feel have to prove it.
I got one thought that might ease your feelings tho: Archers arent even that much nerfed. the update is more something that scares archers. because the knight threat will feel bigger. But it isnt at all. You just gotta work on your timing a bit and eject from a close encounted faster. Other than that, things will be the same.

 

Haven't read through all the comments, but I got a couple things to say:

Balance would have been something easy - a Knight buff..
Not a Knight Buff and a Archer + Builder Uber-Nerf..

Builders now can not defend themselves.
The easiest answer to it would be that a Shield can block spikes.
Just THINK of that. Ponder that for a minute...
Idiot Knights don't avoid it, Archers can easily grapple or move outta the way.
Boom, there you go. Now, Spikes are absolutely USELESS.

Spikes would move slow enough that people can easily see it and move outta the way, or it'll support people spamming spikes, wasting 120 stone on one knight.


Now, with archer... I really hope that someone that actually has a say in things, like a pro archer or something, can come in here and put this update right..
This only affects the good archers, which are few and far between.. If there is a decent archer, its not a guranteed-kill for knights. Now, anyone under decent will be unable to defend themselves, and now Archers will be campers and will ruin the game more..

I am sorry, Geti, but leave the Balancing to people that know how it will affect things...
For some reason, you are listening to the noobs that don't know balance and going for the things that will make people leave..


I'll just end on one note: Revert to the previous build, NEVER balance again, fix bugs, fix lag, fix FPS, and leave it at that. Add in a modder update or two, and leave it as un-updatable.. You are only ruining the game more with these UNbalances.

 

Your loss. Some unsolicited advice: diversify your tactics and you'll have more fun and care less when classes are tweaked.

No, I haven't killed a knight with full health with my pickaxe, and you shouldn't be able to. Builders are a support class.

bombs =/= mats

Spikes don't cost COINS, they cost STONE. Stone can be a very valuable resource, esp. considering some maps aren't made to be played for extended periods of time; the stone and gold deposits can be exhausted pretty quickly, and builders with a death wish don't exactly help that issue.

That thread doesn't really offer any line of reasoning as to why it shouldn't be nerfed and you aren't either. Even the video demonstration in the thread doesn't show a good archer using the boulder; have you actually seen an archer DESTROY with a boulder? The boulder doesn't slow archers down when they're slinging themselves all over the map and throwing the boulders at mach 1. If anything, an archer should be significantly slowed when holding the boulder and grappling. Archer-boulder combo = OP as fuck.

And yes, the dev team should *listen* to all the people, but that doesn't mean they have to make every suggested change. I'm glad you're not on the dev team though, you just dismiss any constructive criticism out of hand if you don't agree with it. You and blue tiger would be great friends

 

I already tried :(.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2014, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2014 ---

I already know how to use a boulder. You just grapple into a target, push space, get a kill, push c, pick up boulder, run away like a coward. Can't wait until those things are nerfed, or better yet, removed.

 

>: why nerf the archer again and buff the knight... just a little spam jabber can kill and don't lost 0.5hearth in front of an archer... sorry to say it but it's stupid...

 

This. Archers can still kite, you just have to adjust your tactics accordingly (if they were dependent on drawing and running)

Even if I concede that this list is accurate, it only adds more to my point. The alleged fact that the only advantage archer has over knight is maneuverability and archer class is STILL superior to knights (esp. knights without items [some TDM maps don't even have shops, wtf]) should say a lot. In other words, if knights have more advantages in your mind and a good archer can still come out on top, why then don't you understand why the archer should be nerfed? A knight has 3 advantages over archer and you STILL can't best a good archer without items or hoping the archer slips up when chasing him and changing the terrain.

Archers were so OP before the update that, in TDM when I would 1v1 an archer and he wanted me to chase him so he could kite me, I would just camp a spot that wasn't archer-friendly because that kiting tactic is effectively camping. A tactic is broken and needs to be fixed if the only counter is to camp, hope the player makes a mistake, or you have to switch classes. The classes should be balanced and you shouldn't have to switch to archer to fight an archer.

 

umm yesterday i was trying to stun some one and he did the same and we went flying in the air... it was scary until i killed him

 

You tried to shield stun another knight shield stunning? If yes, that's nothing new and unrelated to the update, that's just the nature of teh shield.

 

So....we're essentially adding back the shield angles that were originally taken out to make knight shielding less OP....honestly it's like one step forward and two steps back all the time with these updates x.x. Consistency PLEASE. Although I guess that is technically consistency in terms of annoyance -_-. Well w/e, not my problem. Spikes being nerfed is definitely a plus though I feel archers needed that speed while charging. They're too predicable in what they're going to do as it is.

That's my two cents.

 

I don't see this update as a problem (for archer the builder is another story), i usually play archer and am pretty good at it, archers moving slower while drawing is fine, helps knights fend of shot gun arrows. Although this prohibits the archers movement while shooting YOU STILL HAVE A FUCKING GRAPPLE, use the damn thing, take your shot and run back a bit and hop back in to take another pot shot.

 

you mean you dont remember flying around the map stunned

 

When two knights max their slide and slide into each other, that's what happens. Or if I'm going full speed with my slide and I hit you (and you're not sliding full speed at me) then you'll get punted. lrn 2 fayse surf kid

Unless you're not referring to the full-slide-punt and to when two players are trying to jump on each other and go vertically into the air until one of the players is killed or breaks away from the entanglement (I'm not really sure how it happens, I think it has to do with jumping on the other players head while the other tries to jump on yours and you both climb up each other some how)

You need to understand that this is a part of the developing process and you need to bare with it. The devs can't know for sure if these tweaks are the right changes to make until the tweaked game has been played and tested. After the shield nerf has been played and tested, Geti now knows the nerf wasn't the right route to take; how is that back peddling? Trial and error isn't back peddling.

They certainly weren't more predictable than the knights, which is why they were nerfed.

 

The archer change makes it so its impossible for archers to defend themselves when up close to a knight, forcing them to constantly hide ontop of towers or die.

 

Let's all ask ourselves this: What is an archer's role in this game?

The archers role is to support the frontline. They are able to destroy enemy buildings and hinder enemy advances. Some players are very good at the archer and they have developed a skill to play lone wolf style. As impressive as this is we should all keep in mind that archer is a support class and this nerf was aimed towards players that are playing archers as a frontline class. I was playing with tekk1 aka Moozie earlier today and he was doing just fine. Give this build time before you jump to conclusions

 

I'm not sure what to think of these changes. Falling spikes was a strange decision to add in the first place, I think, and could really be cut out. I mean, falling trees, saws and whatnot has already gotten nerfed; why should spikes that are meant for traps be any different. Nerfing Archers' movement speed isn't really a nerf since you can use the grappling hook, so I guess it's okay. Some interesting new stuff in there, but I would've liked to see more focus on improving more essential things such as latency and performance.

The adjustments I would like to see are to reduce the knights' special attack to a single slash only. I think it's only fair since the Archers' special attack was changed earlier. Secondly, I think the builders' pickaxe could do a little more damage to other players - or at least make the drill more useful as a weapon.

I would also like to suggest a "beta program" for people who want to partake in testing of new adjustments. Some people tend to get a bit frustrated when the public release changes so much all the time, and then changed back. I don't think it's right to use the public player base as a test group without their consent. Sometimes it feels like that's the case.

 

Don't worry, I can assure you that these changes are being tested extensively before they are released. The only thing I'd have to disagree with you about is knights only being able to single slash. This seems fine in for knight v archer or builder combat; however, knight v knight combat would require multiple team member support. The double slash allows for a knight to slash through a shield and then do damage (if used correctly). If you made it single slash, knights would just constantly break each others shields. Double slashes are risky as well. It requires a longer build up time and leaves the player vulnerable to jabs.

 

So after the update, the game quits right after I click the 'Play' button
After a chat with Roci it was attributed to my usage of a Mac computer
So good Roci's advice sent me here and to say.. ahem.. 'fak u geti'

But
Thank you for the update and all the hard work! I hope this problem is addressed soon, but in the meantime I'll take much-needed break from KAG kekeke
Happeh holidaes

 

I'm sure they are tested, but how, I do not know. Any developer working on his project would test his changes, of course, but is there a dedicated team of some size that tests different kinds of play against eachother, many times, in different variants and combinations? I don't personally think the team working on KAG is big enough or have the time to do this as thoroughly as it probably should. Why do I think that? Because of the public player base's reactions on pretty much any change ever made.