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ReBalance mod discussion

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Rayne, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    If bomb arrows are nerfed I would expect a slight price decrease just because I wouldn't see them as being effective against a whole lot.

    It'd be cool to bring the legolas back as an alternate playstyle so you could switch between the two.

    Keg nerf makes th really hard and almost pointless to use. They fall off enough as it is I think that nerf would make them much more frustrating. Maybe making stone take more damage would be a better balance.

    Builders should dig faster. I think the problem with builder is that every class does the builders job better than it can do itself. More items would be cool imo.

    Bombs should have their radius decreased. The distance on them is ridiculous. I liked classic bombs more because they were used for jumping more than destruction.

    It all comes down to kag being an all teamwork game or special item and lone wolf game.
     
  2. finleymars

    finleymars Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    35
    I agree on your point that bomb arrows may do too much damage to stone for how simple it is to get them, but I feel that they don't necessarily need block damage reduction to be their re-balance. There are countless ways to make having a bomb arrow:bomb_arrow: a lot more dangerous :skull: for the archer who is carrying it:spam:. Since, in all fairness, they nearly have siege engine-like power, maybe they should slow down archers in the same way boulders do :boulder:.

    When I say it like that, I know, sounds crazy:rekt:!!! game-changing:eek:!!! unfair for the poor archers:archer:!!!

    But if each bomb arrow slowed down the archer only a little bit:spam:, lets say, 10% decrease in speed, it would prevent archers from holding three bomb arrows in their inventory and blowing a base to bits in one go:keg: Not because the bomb arrows cant do it, but because it would slow down the archer 30%! Going out to the enemy base 70% normal speed is a dangerous endeavor for the usually nimble archer:chicken:, whereas 90% speed is not as bad. :rollseyes:
     
  3. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    builder is extremely easy to get the flag with if I ran to someone's flagcase with 500 wood and had 15 seconds to encase myself it is over(especially without keg drops) I think a decent enough balance would be for spikes to damage doors so i would be killed if i tried to door spam in forcing me to use blocks and get bombed
     
  4. rymcd

    rymcd Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    287
    This is a great idea, one sided fun is a huge part of KAG right now and it's real painful at times.
    As long as we trade ideas without trading salty feelings this should go well.

    Boulder changes seem pretty legit, you can try giving it slightly more dmg though. I remember while testing it we had a few times where it did one heart from pretty dam high. :P

    Keg smashing is fun but after trying out the mod I'm convinced taking it out is better for balance.
    It's still possible to get the same results but it's not as easy. I think this is good because there's some cheesy ass shit you can do with bomb vomit jumps + Keg combo. Kegs blowing up from the catapult seems like a awesome compromise.

    I LOVE THE BOMB ARROW CHANGE <3
    Will archers love it? Probably not but I think they can learn to like it if they're cheaper or do more player dmg.

    Builders doing more dmg to blocks/doors or just mining faster in general? YES FUCKING PLEASE and don't forget the drill to. <3
    However I'm scared this wont happen due to a common misconception. "Tunnelling will be a bigger issue" I heard it a million times already when asking mumblers but EVERYTHING will be faster. Therefore COUNTER tunnelling is faster, let that sink in please.

    When you think about it to dirt will be broken more often which makes tunnelling harder. If you dig out tunnellers(which will be way easier) they will have to replace dirt with stone or wood. When that happens at a good choke point you'll have a huge advantage(for example under your front wall). Dirt provides AMAZING resistance and protection from explosives. Stone and wood is way more vulnerable meaning other classes can counter the tunnellers as well and contribute more. Also I just wanna say switching to builder to counter enemy tunnellers will be WAY more viable and less dull. It will take less time to get the action going, it'll play out better, and player's should have an easier time cleaning up there base after. Like I said as well once you counter tunnel once it will become easier for the rest of the game.

    On a final note I really feeling like builders doing more dmg to players is worth trying out. I would honestly barley play knight if I could just participate in combat a little more as builder. I really worry archers won't like it though. I think its worth trying out before getting a final opinion though.
     
  5. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    what do you mean an archer has to hit a knight 4 times? with bomb arrows? no, their damage vs players remains unchanged. with the nerf to bomb arrows and their price, buying them would be easier while allowing the archer to still take out doors(doors are blobs not tiles). The tower's weak-point should be the doors, not the wall.
    I don't see how this would encourage camping, archers can still break a hole into a flag cage easily(these don't get very thick, and if they do, they're usually unmaintained), grapple in, and then grapple out. If bomb arrows were 30 coins like this, it'd be 60 coins to get two, which is enough to break through a lot of flag structures you see in pub matches.
    The problem with the bomb arrow is that it's a ranged attack. If the archer were to have a large explosive device, it should be like how the fire satchel was, you run up and stick it to the enemy's base then run away laughing. Change this to an explosive charge and we could really have something.
    Never said anything about making them build faster, only break stone and wood blocks faster than breaking dirt/natural stone. entombing builders could be taken care of by another builder and a knight, just how it is now, just a little faster.
    ::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):::):
    Correct, I'm thinking of 30-40 coins, would need some testing with a bit of players to find out the right coin cost I think.

    I've wanted to do this for a while actually, so I'm pretty happy you mentioned it, will add to the todo. :)

    My problem with the keg is that it is better suited for camping than it is for attacking. If we disallowed players to do keg drops, and made it so it only exploded on impact when launched from a catapult(while maybe increasing the fuse timer a bit), it becomes better suited for assaulting than defending. It would still be possible to manually keg drop, I've tried it out and it's tricky to get the hang of but easy once you do, you just need to time the fuse so it explodes when it hits the ground. Imo this creates a higher skill ceiling for keg drops.

    Completely agree, being a builder is such a pain, not because you can die easily, but because the damage you're able to do(without resorting to shittery) is pitiful at best. I don't know about everyone else, but I want to see builders rushing forward to collapse towers while the enemy is climbing the other side, like they used to in classic!

    How large do you think the radius should be? A block is 8.0f, currently the bomb's radius for damaging players(blobs) is: 64.0f(holy shit didn't realize it was so large). If the radius becomes too small it might require a rework of how the damage scaling works.

    This is just my opinion, but I think it should be a bit of both. Each class should be able to do decent "damage" if they're a skilled player, but proper teamwork should be able to overcome lone wolves. I realize pubs aren't the best at teamwork in kag, but I've seen some really nice moments of teamwork happen, only to be crushed by a keg drop, or bomb arrow spam.
    why would you want spikes to damage doors? I'm not sure I understand.

    If builders could dig stone and wood blocks faster I'd think you could deal with an entomber faster, thus making it less of an annoyance, while allowing builders to deal more damage to structures in less time.
     
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  6. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    btw there's a test server up: action testing password is TEST, will put info in first post.
     
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  7. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    I would think a nice fix for builder would be making the drill actually exist. I literally haven't seen a single drill since it was made a builder only item, because it overheats in 3 seconds so you really can't do much with one. Not to mention chances are you'll be killed before you can use it.
     
  8. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    So anyone up for the pre-900 archer master race? I recall their main issue was a lack of stunning.
     
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  9. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Idk, a lot of the better builders buy them really often. It does heat quickly, but it's very useful for surprise digging through walls, and surprise kills. You can kill archers and builders in fractions of a second, but it almost never works against knights. It's basically the builder combat tool. But sometimes you just can't hit anyone with the damn thing if they're moving around. It doesn't seem to register hits unless they're standing still.
     
  10. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    How about it damages through one tile. Doors/Plats eat it though.
     
  11. I agree with all these points. My only concern is with kegs from catapults and how they'd react with people attempting to pick them up. A launched keg has little momentum usually and can easily be countered. My suggestion to better that is by having kegs only capable of being caught while flying horizontally.
    Why: Before with keg jumps from bombs, while you were dropping the keg you could put momentum on the keg going downwards so it couldn't usually be caught. This will raise the probability that a keg will have success while still being capable of being countered.
    If this were to be added I also suggest raising the price of kegs to 140 so they aren't as spammy. It seems that kegs usually get enough money to buy another keg and repeat the process.
    Thirdly, I'd like to see trampolines nerfed a bit for the following reason: Stackjng 5-6 trampolines can send you across the map. Solution: make trampolines unable to stack and have them bounce off each other. (Their will be alternatives to trampoline stacking such as the old school trampoline cannons.
    Lastly, If it can be helped, I'd like to see kegs not blow up on impact of trampolines.
     
  12. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    I really didn't see kegs as much of a problem before tbh. I think that it does require skill to stack the bombs perfectly for a good jump and then being able to land the kegs accurately. I think it should still kill people bit do less damage to structures. They are really risky to take on the battlefield to begin with and I don't see them being spammed as much as other special items.

    As for trampolines: I don't think they're as big of a deal as you make it. It adds another area for mobility and it takes a good amount of time to set up. Not only that but they get destroyed easily. For tramp changes, make them rotatable like ladders. And either make them have more health so they can actually be useful on the frontlines (if you make the tramp cannon nerf) or just keep them as they are right now.
     
  13. Okay, so I see a lot of discussion and a lot of proposed changes. Here's what I think, for what it's worth:

    1) Boulders now do damage based on velocity.y, pointblanking people with them is no longer possible.
    Reason: being insta-killed by a boulder after a 1 tile drop is complete bullshit, now you need to make the boulder fall faster than 6.0f to cause insta-kills.

    so much yes, this makes a lot of sense. It does take away from an attack method of the builder, but builders should be building anyway. Thumbs up.

    2) Bomb arrows deal as much tile damage as a bomb now.
    Reason: to help with erosion of the map, making builders' lives easier.

    If the purpose of this is to redefine bomb arrows as an anti-infantry type of arrow, then I see no problem. It would encourage the use of kegs and/or ballistas or catapults - while not a bad thing, the ballistas/catapults put extra stress on the usually limited gold supplies within a map.
    Perhaps fire arrows should have their DoT slightly nerfed, but their wood burning capabilities enhanced as a result? Not only would it move the fire arrow back to its original position as an anti-tower weapon, it encourages builders to use stone rather than wood.


    3) Kegs do not explode when falling from high up, you need to time keg drops now.
    Reason: keg drops are often used for defending in pub, being thrown off of your teams tower to destroy an incoming wave of knights and builders, who had a good chance of breaking into the flag. I have seen many pub matches stalemate because some "pro" doesn't want to lose.

    I like this. They were never meant to be long ranged weapons.
     
  14. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    If bomb arrows were nerfed, what would archers do? Be annoying and spam arrows? @Rayne, please tell me. Without good bomb arrows archers will become useless. .-.
     
  15. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    ive been playing close range support archer for the last few weeks to test it out. if you can't help your team out besides spamming bomb arrows (arrow ladders, keeping builders / archers at bay, knight support, sniping with other special arrows, etc) then you are simply a shit archer who should git gud.
     
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  16. RampageX

    RampageX Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    195
    The bomb arrows are still good, he wants it basically to be like a choice would you rather take a risk and buy one bomb arrows or buy two fire arrows. Archers are mean't to be annoying and spam all different kind of arrows. Archers aren't meant to kill, they are support.
     
  17. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    If there is only 1 class meant to fight and get kills then there shouldn't be a scoreboard so that logic is flawed
     
  18. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    297
    k
     
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  19. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    Still haven't played enough of the new stuff to make any real comments here, but am enjoying most of the back and forth in this thread.

    I definitely think this is one of the bigger problems and maybe a rebalancing mod could help it, but I mean out of the several years KAG has been up, there have been only a handful of instances where it could be said to have been decently balanced and fun for pub-play(which is the majority of play and always has been) [and whatever tourney dudes do that I don't care about really tbh] .

    --

    The thing is most of the 'fun' mechanics are rather strong, so what happens inevitably, is that they empower you as a person instead of your team, even when you consider things like trampoline cannons, depending on how they're made they might help certain teammates more than others (specifically those who actually fucking use it), it's hard to make something skillfully made help your teammates as well.

    I mean sure there are things like siege which should help your team, but in most pub matches, how often does that happen? Maybe one guy sits there catapulting knights over, but now that guy who had the presence of mind to do so isn't going over there and getting kills/having fun, he's just a ferry man, this is fine if he's an archer who can shoot from there and do stuff in the mean time,or a builder, but otherwise it can be quite boring of a task. There's also the fact that you have to drop your coins to get that catapult to send people over, to help your team who may or may not get in (thus wasting your money entirely), it can be shot by a few bomb arrows if not protected, gives the enemy archers hella coins if it's somewhere it can get shot, the list goes on.

    I really haven't honestly bothered at all to do what I used to do in classic which is to go on a test server and just fuck with shit for hours to find fun things that were broken/strong/easy bases plebs(like me) can walk through without trying. I feel like I really need to do this before I comment on threads like this.
     
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  20. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    The best way to find the strongest items is by looking at top players and what they use. I use a ton of bombs to bomb jump. Waffle buys kegs and bombs for keg jumps. Weman buys bomb arrows to slip into a base as fast as he can. Zen spams bombs to rack up kills. Sang also uses bombs for jumping (similar style to mine). With uses fire to take out archers. It goes on and on. I think people just find items that best suit their playstyle.