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ReBalance mod discussion

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Rayne, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    I can't believe an experienced archer like you doesn't know how to play without bomb arrows, because I don't have any problems playing without them myself, maybe because I actually try to kill the enemy with my team rather than lone wolf it.

    (Also, bomb arrows are part of the "Be annoying and spam arrows?", they're the most annoying arrow to deal with imho)
    They are meant to kill, why do you think a half shot does a full heart of damage? They're not meant to be played like knight, it's more of a cat and mouse playstyle whereas knight is more up in your face. The reason they have a grappling hook is to get around enemies/structures and hit them from other angles, which is made 10x more effective by working with your team.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Noburu and RampageX like this.
  2. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Uhh, there might be something wrong with the map cycle on the testing server. Looks like there's just one map, and I don't really think anyone would want to play on it

    [​IMG]

    I'm looking forward to trying the changes out
     
    Verzuvius likes this.
  3. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    Sorry, I was putting it back to what it was before it was hijacked for this since I was testing maps and what was on there before I did so wasn't any new maps but just two I was fucking with even before that, but people weren't doing matches on it, they were simply testing the features, if you want a specific map I can change it back or I'm sure Rayne will see this and do so.
     
  4. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    1. Love the boulder idea.

    2.I feel like bomb arrows should do a bit more destructive damage though.

    3. Best thing EVA
     
  5. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    Is the problem bomb arrow spam or their specific damage to people and objects? because cant you raise their inventory space to 2/4 to limit the spam from people
     
    kodysch likes this.
  6. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    That, that sounds awful.

    Nobody fucking wants to play inventory tetris.
     
  7. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    > All Items are 1x1, bomb arrows are 2x1, inventory ix 2x2
    > Inventory tetris

    I'm still ankling for pre 900, shit was cash.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  8. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    niggy why should i have to limit my other arrows because of the only item in the game taking up a 2 x 1. that's like saying "knights are op make the bomb a 2 x 1 instead of just changing the item :^)) ". problem doesn't get fixed, you just avoided it.
     
    Noburu and BlueLuigi like this.
  9. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    No that is like saying knight bomb spam is too op lets make knights only be able to carry 2 bombs not 4

    the difference is that the item itself isn't too strong the spam of it is
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  10. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    I'll like a lot of what's going on in this thread. Most of the time these types of threads just turn in to flame wars. With people staying stalwart in their unchanging ways that give no feedback to the people trying to help the community. This was mentioned briefly by @Rayne, but we had a discussion about balance with some good points last night that reflected his point earlier.

    Bombs have a 64 pixel radius. This seems like a serious problem. It encourages wild spam of bombs without regard to where they go because you are more than likely to get a kill and get some refunded cash back. Dropping this radius even to 48 pixels would be great. Skinney also mentioned that a good idea would be to increase the drag/friction of a bomb so they can't be launched farther than an arrow from the top of a tower.. like really. Knights shouldn't be playing spammy archer with stronger weapons.

    In regards to the legolas shot I think the new shotgun is much better than the old legolas shot. Simply because it encourages more aggressive play rather than campy tower stuff. I really don't like the idea of archer begin meant to be campy, It's much more fun to fight aggressive archers as a knight and archer vs. archer. Fire arrow is a great weapon and should be encouraged more. Since people continually spam it at me in fun, jesting, "burn the Witch". I've found it to be an effective weapon, especially against other archers. However it might be good to increase it's damage by about half a heart or so simply because a lot of times that it should get the job done, it just fizzles out for no reason.
     
  11. BucketEmpty

    BucketEmpty Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    35
    I'm honestly surprised more people didn't bring up the issue of the bomb explosive radius, it does deadly damage, yet covers so much area. I'd like to see a smaller radius with the same deadly damage, it would make it a lot more rewarding and exciting to land a nice bomb on a high traffic area. I find myself in many situations where I am putting my in harms way by getting close to the knight in hopes that he throws the bomb too far, and so many times the bomb gets decently far away yet it doesn't matter because the radius it covers is so great. The damage should remain the same, they are bombs for gods sake, this will keep the fun factor knights and won't be too much of a huge nerf.

    Also I'd like to see slashing disabled when a bomb is out, shield still available, it resulted in a bit of a flame war so I won't say much on it. Check it out if you want here.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2015, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2015 ---
    Ah I almost left something out, something nobody has mentioned to my knowledge. Shield-Stabbing with arrows, why can't us archers do this? I've been in so many situations where I am clearly hitting a knights head while he is shield to either left or right, and I get a shield dink, or I shoot their legs/feet while they are shield to the upper left or right.

    I'm not really sure if this is by design but it seems really odd and I'm sure some archers could relate. Seems like the hitboxes could use some adjusting and fine-tuning, I feel this would raise the potential skill cap on the archer.
     
  12. I'd say that's to do with latency - on your side, he's shielding to the left, but on the server's side he's shielding upwards.
     
    BlueLuigi and BucketEmpty like this.
  13. BucketEmpty

    BucketEmpty Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    35
    Wow I'm such a noob I left another thing out of my post, the ideas just flowing in.

    Bomb sniping, shooting arrows at flying bombs, I was legit so excited to do this when I found out you could. But every time I've shot a bomb its velocity just lowers a tiny bit or zeros out, I'm not sure how it works or I just suck at it, but I would love for it to add some force to that bomb in the opposite direction maybe with a fully charged arrow or a shotgun charge. Again I think this has the potential to increase the skill cap on the archer class and lets us use the knights power against them instead of buffing the archer much
     
    Blue_Tiger, BlueLuigi, zerd and 4 others like this.
  14. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    So Rayne and I were going through some code with fire to figure out what we could do to improve it. And we found this nugget of gold.
    This code stops knights from being set on fire regardless of the direction of their shield. e.i) you can shoot a knight in the back and he wont set on fire. A knight can also stand in a burning building, but as long as they have their shield up they will not take damage from the fire... MFW.
     
    Kububv, Gurin, BlueLuigi and 6 others like this.
  15. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Is it possible to adapt satchels to become an explosive archer-only item? So no fire, just an explosive that can be stuck to walls. This way if you managed to sneak in you could plant it, but you couldn't just launch them at a tower being built at mid. Instead of launching them from a distance, archers will have to take a risk and grapple up a tower first.

    Can you make spikes more resilient to bombs too?

    Can you make builders dig dirt slowly, but stone fast? Maybe a drill buff would help.
     
  16. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    new list of proposed changes:
    Archer;
    1) Archers can now dig through DIRT only, using spacebar.
    Reason: give the archers a little more flexibility when it comes to terrain control.
    2) Archers can fletch arrows from trees like in classic, using the same mechanic as above.
    Reason: quality of life tweak for the archer, isn't hard to code.
    3) Fire arrows now deal 2 hearts of damage on hit(full charge).
    Reason: gives the archer a bit more combat capabilities through the use of coin.
    4) Bomb arrows cost 30g, and deal as much damage as a regular bomb.
    Reason: gives the archer a choice, some tile damage, or more player damage, as fire arrows will cost the same but give 2. 60 coins gets you 2 bomb arrows which can break 6 tiles if you aim correctly, which is more damage than the previous 50 coins for 1 bomb arrow, even with the nerfed damage. This raises the skill ceiling with them, as you can't just aim in the general direction of the flag coffin, you need to hit the hole you made with the last arrow.
    5) Arrows now deflect bombs as proposed by @BucketEmpty
    Reason: sounds pretty cool and easy to do, kudos :) this is a rare enough occurrence so I don't think it'll be too overpowered
    6) Bomb Satchel.
    Stats: 0.5 hearts of health, damage similar to the old bomb arrows. 5 seconds to explode.
    Reason: A more offensive version of the bomb arrow, it is more counter-able, and could be the counter-buff to the bomb arrows that we're looking for, and ultimately it would balance the count of special items between the two classes. The archer shop sells 4 items but 1 of those is the item required for regular attacks.

    Builder;
    1) Drills take longer to overheat while digging stone/wood built blocks/doors.
    Reason: to encourage offensive use of them on enemy towers.
    2) Builders do more damage to stone/wood built blocks/doors.
    Reason: to take the focus from underground to the surface.

    Knight;
    1) Bomb radius reduced to 32 pixels(from 64), and for the damage falloff do 1 heart at the edge of the explosion.
    Reason: bomb throwing can net a lot of random kills because it has a large explosion range: 64 radius = 128 diameter, 128/8pixelspertile= 16 tiles. This change would make bombs require more precise aim while being more punchy.
    2) Velocity gained from bombjumping is more horizontal than vertical.
    Reason: Bombjumps would require a tall structure to get over other tall structures, placing more value in builders doing their job.
    3) Bomb drag increased.
    Reason: Bombs can fly, doesn't make sense.
    4) Kegs do not explode when falling from high up, you need to time keg drops now.
    Reason: keg drops are often used for defending in pub, being thrown off of your teams tower to destroy an incoming wave of knights and builders, who had a good chance of breaking into the flag. I have seen many pub matches stalemate because some "pro" doesn't want to lose. To change the keg drop from a defensive move to an offensive one, they would explode on impact when launched from a catapult while lit.

    In General:
    1) Heart drop rate changed to 50% from 100%.
    Reason: to prevent snowballing by "pro" players. If you want consistent heals, carry some food in your inv(which limits your special item count).
    2) Top two blocks of the map can be built on.
    Reason: to help with building on smaller maps.
    3) Boulders now do damage based on velocity.y, pointblanking people with them is no longer possible.
    Reason: being insta-killed by a boulder after a 1 tile drop is complete bullshit, now you need to make the boulder fall faster than 6.0f to cause insta-kills.
     
    kodysch, BlueLuigi, Verzuvius and 6 others like this.
  17. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Bomb arrows should act like bombs and send knights flying backwards. That'd be hilarious if you needed to get a knight off of you. They have two options: Absorb the damage or get launched backwards. I've seen a glitch when an archer shotguns a knight backwards and I think it'd be a pretty fun thing to actually be added in game.
     
    NinjaCell likes this.
  18. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Smash them into the ground/pits too.
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  19. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    I'm really liking every idea except for the keg dropping one. Kegs are so hard to use as it is because enemies can knock them off of you so easily. I don't see why it's a problem for a player to be able to drop them if he gets a good bomb jump ready. They can be grabbed and people have some time to react. I think the only problem is the coin return rate. After a keg drop they'll have enough coins to get another keg. I don't see kegs as that big of a problem. They are hardly used in competitive because they can easily be used against you. I wouldn't mind more classes being able to use other classes items. I.E. Builders being able to light kegs, archers blowing up kegs with fire arrows.
     
    BucketEmpty likes this.
  20. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    Woo, a way to make traps slightly more useful than current (mostly useless)