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Reducing explosion area of bombs(knight only)

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Lawrence_Shagsworth, Jul 7, 2015.

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  1. blackjoker77777

    blackjoker77777 Haxor Tester
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    441
    I tried to test it too, and I think it's 9 Blocks Radius (counting the block of the bomb).
    in the first try I got 10 Blocks (the bomb block included)... [and I think I did something wrong, not sure but I don't really think that's the right radius]
    screen-15-07-12-02-36-45.png
    in the two other tries I found out that the radius is 9
    ps: I know that it looks like I'm on the 10th block in this screenshot but that's because the bomb pushed me a bit off the 9th one. screen-15-07-12-02-43-10.png screen-15-07-12-02-46-59.png
     
    blackjoker77777, Jul 12, 2015
    #21
    watermelon200 likes this.
  2. ParaLogia

    ParaLogia tired Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

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    1,133
    This is the reason why I had difficulty making the chart at first. Thinking in terms of blocks can be restrictive. I tried to edit your image to clarify what I mean by 8 tiles.

    BombClarification.png

    You have to measure the distance directly from the location of the bomb, which would be in the middle of the block. So I copy-pasted some blocks on half-intervals to measure 8 tiles of distance. From there, you can see that the edge of the explosion does intersect with your hitbox (approximated with the green circle).

    It doesn't matter whether you're standing completely in the explosion radius or you're barely touching it--if it hits you, it hits you.
     
    ParaLogia, Jul 12, 2015
    #22
    blackjoker77777 likes this.
  3. watermelon200

    watermelon200 Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    25
    im fine with the explodion radius
     
    watermelon200, Jul 23, 2015
    #23
  4. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Can we do something about the bomb radius? I fully expect a nerf next parch. We even have the recode in that mod rayne and them made. Tired of seeing these threads especially when the work is already ready to fix it.
     
    TheDirtySwine, Jul 26, 2015
    #24
  5. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    Hopefully I can bring some solid numbers on this, just look at the code instead of messily testing it.

    This is the code used in bomb init:
    SetupBomb(this, bomb_fuse, 64.0f, 3.0f, 24.0f, 0.4f, true);
    (found in Bomb.as)

    Here are what those parameters are named.
    void SetupBomb(CBlob@ this, const int fuseTicks, const f32 explRadius, const f32 explosive_damage, const f32 map_damage_radius, const f32 map_damage_ratio, const bool map_damage_raycast)
    (found in BombCommon.as)

    64.0f is the radius in pixels. A block is 8 pixels. Therefore the explosion radius is 8 blocks worth from the center of the bomb.

    Now the damage is 3.0f.
    At the end of the timer a function Explode is called from Explode.as at the end of the function it loops through all entities within the radius and calls HitBlob on them then it scales the default damage done on the blob calling this:

    f32 scale;
    Vec2f bombforce = getBombForce(this, radius, hit_blob_pos, pos, hit_blob.getMass(), scale);
    f32 dam = damage * scale;

    getBombFroce is weirdly found in ... SplashWater.as? what the fuck? Anyways heres the code for that:

    Vec2f getBombForce(CBlob@ this, f32 radius, Vec2f hit_blob_pos, Vec2f pos, f32 hit_blob_mass, f32 &out scale)
    {
    Vec2f offset = hit_blob_pos - pos;
    f32 distance = offset.Length();
    //set the scale (2 step)
    scale = (distance > (radius * 0.7)) ? 0.5f : 1.0f;
    //the force, copy across
    Vec2f bombforce = offset;
    bombforce.Normalize();
    bombforce *= 2.0f;
    bombforce.y -= 0.2f; // push up for greater cinematic effect
    bombforce.x = Maths::Round(bombforce.x);
    bombforce.y = Maths::Round(bombforce.y);
    bombforce /= 2.0f;
    bombforce *= hit_blob_mass * (3.0f) * scale;
    return bombforce;
    }

    The important thing about that function is that it sets the scale value to half if it's outside the 70% range.

    so the variable dam from above can only ever be 1.5 or 3.0 according to that function.

    So there's that info on how bombs currently behave.

    Now here's what rayne did.

    SetupBomb( this, bomb_fuse, 48.0f, 3.0f, 24.0f, 0.4f, true );

    reduced the radius by 2 blocks. (That might be an old version of the file but we had it at that at one point). Might have been changed to 56 don't remember exactly but we just need some testing again. We played a lot with it and the knights were fine with it, and the deaths to the archers felt less retarded and more avoidable if the knights weren't trying.

    I need to go check the rest of the files on the server. Because I don't have all the changes but we also changed bomb jump to be more horizontal. And changed how the damage drop off worked with bombs so it wasn't just 1.5 or 3.0; it was linear, but couldn't be less the 1.0. Maybe @Rayne can post a link to the entire rebalance mod we had towards the end.

    Hope that helps with you guys some I'd really like to see some kind of change to bomb radius.
     
    Verrazano, Jul 26, 2015
    #25
    Blue_Tiger, Dargona1018, ParaLogia and 3 others like this.
  6. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Would be happy to reduce it, got a feeling it'll be badly received by some but would be nice to have some changes that have their own threads put through their paces.

    As Verra has pointed out there's not much of a code change involved in this, kinda disappointing how long it took for someone to actually look at the files rather than try to measure empirically but I guess that can't be helped when there aren't many code-savvy players haha.
     
    Geti, Jul 27, 2015
    #26
    Blue_Tiger and Fernegulus like this.
  7. Fernegulus

    Fernegulus Bison Rider

    Messages:
    400
    watching them do the ugly paint drawings was just too fun :rekt:
    Also the bomb code is ugly af
     
    Fernegulus, Jul 27, 2015
    #27
    blackjoker77777 likes this.
  8. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Would be interested in your idea of "non-ugly code", but of course it is, it's like pre-2014 code; just about any "old code" (and most "new code") in KAG is either full of shims to make it work like something in classic did, or muddled with tons of properties and command usage before we realised the code smell and performance implications there. The bomb code is at least functional, commented, and self contained/reusable.
     
    Geti, Jul 28, 2015
    #28
  9. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    > Self contained
    > uses SplashWater.as to determine damage 10/10
     
    Verrazano, Jul 28, 2015
    #29
    blackjoker77777 and Fernegulus like this.
  10. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    >moved there by MM
    >includes it as required
    >no extra work on your part
    >giving me this shit 2015
     
    Geti, Jul 28, 2015
    #30
    Koveltskiis, Rayne, J-man2003 and 5 others like this.
  11. J-man2003

    J-man2003 Haxor

    Messages:
    352
    No

    Bombs have a fine-tuned and balanced radius as is, and it takes great skill and luck to kill descent archers with them, and there are still repercussions for using them such as the fact that they can hurt you.
     
    J-man2003, Jul 31, 2015
    #31
  12. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    @Geti Archer arrows almost insta destroys doors and ballistas and whatnot while normal bombs take a shit ton. Besides most bombs I buy, I use to get over obstacles which archers can just hop over. So its not overpowered imo. I think archer bomb arrows should be less destructive actually. Its archer bomb arrows that breach strong flagrooms most times. Besides have you ever seen an archer catapult himself around to dodge bombs? They can sling themselves far away in incredible short time. If you really wanna decrease bomb radius, decrease the bungie rope length by the same amount aswell.

    And offtopic. Why do archers get two waterarrows for the price of one? what makes archer water arrows less good, that they deserve two instead of one? I really dont get that one at all.
    EDIT: its actually 20 bucks for 2 waterbomb arrows while a water bomb is 30 bucks for one. pls throw some logic my way so i can deal with this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
    AJFaas, Aug 12, 2015
    #32
    blackjoker77777 likes this.
  13. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Short answer: Archers and knights have different roles. The sooner you realise that they are better than each other at some things by design, the better.

    Longer answer:
    Knights are able to capitalise on a water bomb with an instant kill on any class - an archer simply doesn't have the dps to do this to knights. Knights also then get the coin payoff of a kill plus dropped coins. Archers get two water arrows so they can use them for supporting team-mates, and often receive no payment at all in return (other than their team moving up).

    Archers are able to sap vehicles and flag rooms with bomb arrows. Knights are able to use their bombs for mobility, and can cook their bombs to explode without a direct impact. Bomb arrows cost much more money than bombs. Bomb arrows do not one-hit knights, bombs do one-hit archers (for those still blind enough to think in a 1v1 class v class mentality in a primarily team game)

    Archers can slingshot to avoid bombs, but it's often a 50:50 at best, and the knight can always respond.

    Annoyed answer: "whaaaah archer op" fuck off.

    Bottom line: This reduction isn't as significant as you seem to think. Makes me think those opposing have either never been on the receiving end of bomb spam, or are the ones exploiting bomb spam. Aimed bombs, bomb jumps, and using bombs to destroy 1-wide walls are all largely unaffected. Spamming bombs at large groups and over large distances (which encroaches the "ranged" role of archers significantly) are the two majorly affected "strategies".
     
    Geti, Aug 12, 2015
    #33
    Redshadow6, SirDangalang, Verrazano and 1 other person like this.
  14. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

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    Is the bomb damage raised for this lower distance?
    Or only the radius is affected
     
    Asu, Aug 12, 2015
    #34
  15. Fernegulus

    Fernegulus Bison Rider

    Messages:
    400
    I just wish it was like in classic, 10 knights, 3 archers, 2 builders or so.
     
    Fernegulus, Aug 12, 2015
    #35
  16. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    @Geti I understand that you hear people complain that radius is too big and that it seems logical to reduce it. But I also think that you are missing many different factors that also come to play if you nerf this. For example you probably dont know that archers often ruin bombjumps by shooting a water Arrow on the right time, making the knight suicide. Which is really annoying because its super cheap. And you probably also dont know that basically archers can run from Knights forever if they play their cards right, unless the knight has bombs. Bottom line archers are more a nuisance than a real threat right now. Super annoying yet not really that useful. I know youre trying to have this game team based. But you should also consider if it would be more fun that way.

    What I know is that youre keep making people mad by then nerfing Knights and then nerfing archers and then nerfing builders and then making archers stronger again and then making Knights stronger again and then making builders stronger again etc etc etc. I believe if you really wanna balance the game you oughta play it more because it feels that youre just doing what the loud people tell you too do. loud people that seem to ''forget'' many other aspects that are also important.

    Maybe you think that what i say isnt true and you think im some ''know it better, wiseass, bitch complainer''. But I KNOW that many people arent happy with the direction kag is going, and im one of them.
     
    AJFaas, Aug 12, 2015
    #36
    Fuzzle likes this.
  17. blackjoker77777

    blackjoker77777 Haxor Tester
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    441
    Please try not to tag someone that already commented in a thread xD
    and as you know, Geti is the only dev that still plays KAG ::P:
    [​IMG]
    I have to admit that I agree with what you said, I mean reducing bomb radius will remove the funny part of a one knight bombing the whole enemy team (specially archers) and a pro archer will know how to dodge a bomb and/or use it against the knight after some practice.
    but maybe this radius nerf would make knights focus on sniping their bombs and using them wisely instead of randomly throwing them (I saw some players that randomly throw bombs and get tons of kills just because of ... luck ? )
    what I'm saying that we have to give it a try, after all ... archers and builders were nerfed before and now we got used to that and actually some of those nerfs made KAG much funnier.
    also this might be off-topic (sorry for that) but I wanted to remind you Geti of this issue :/
    screen-15-08-12-14-27-42.png when you host a dedicated server (without connecting to internet) and you try to join it using the 'Connect to...' [it started to occur after the last update]
     
    blackjoker77777, Aug 12, 2015
    #37
  18. Snake19

    Snake19 RIP Staff Alumni Donator
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
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    [​IMG]
    So look at this, lol
    I have MM on steam so i see when he is online x')
    More seriously, Geti is without a doubt the most active dev by far.
     
    Snake19, Aug 12, 2015
    #38
  19. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
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    The problem with reduced bomb radius is that archers can move too fast for you to launch a precise bomb (not counting the lag, even if it is low) - This is not a problem with noob archers, but against good archers, no matter what is your level, you have near 0 chance to kill a good archer (revealant archers : verzuvius, malfunction, and especially sirdangalang or whatever is his name) even if you are super close to him, as knight, which kinda sucks. It's already quite rare than I can kill those archers as knight, even with explosives I'm quite in ease with.
    Nerfing bomb radius is near equal to buff archer movements, which sounds overpowered.

    tl;dr good idea if archers weren't moving so fast

    Geti is closer to the community because he's probably better at this than MM.
    MM doesn't work on KAG for some time already and prefer working on other games afik and never was too much active on the forums.

    Off topic : Uh since when does the API give Geti's infos? Always thought he made it so it wasn't showing his info.
     
    Asu, Aug 12, 2015
    #39
  20. heX_

    heX_ Bison Rider

    Messages:
    193
    Bomb radius has always been too high, and mass killings with one bomb simply shouldnt be possible. Also keep in mind this will affect builders as well as archers. Right now a builder has no option but to quickly try and hide when an enemy lights a bomb, because you simply cant outrun it.
     
    heX_, Aug 12, 2015
    #40
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