Archer Balance [371]

You could've said that the first time instead of attempting to insult me.

Anyways, I was saying we should make it so arrows don't work at close range, that way the bomb would have some usefulness for them.

 

I think those suggestions for the cata would go a long way, currently the thing is fucking useless, it's very difficult to setup a position where it's covered from most angles, and even then with all the angles cut off it doesn't take much to get a shot on it, couple that with how expensive they are, how much stone they take to fuel, and that you need to get a siege workshop up before they can be used that makes them a fucker to use effectively. Most of the time they're only effective if they're raining down from a massive fuck off skybridge. Personally I think it'd also help if you could change the firing angle somehow, either maybe have 2 or 3 preset arcs you can change with W and S or just have it change like it would with the archer, not been able to effectively target certain areas of a large tower is a fucking pain, and given the expensive of using a cata I don't think it's much to ask that they're a bit more flexible, different firemodes are a good idea too, the current firemode does fuck all to castles really.

Another thing that makes them a pain in the arse is they fuck up any backwall from the surrounding area they're been fired from, if they had some aura or other that made all background tiles immune to it's fire within a certain radius that'd be decent.

If towers were more in fear of been breached then archers would have to think more about where they were firing from, and that along with a few nerfs for the archer itself then I think the whole thing could be balanceable.

 

Even though archers are very op with their arrow spam, i still think they should have a greater fall distance then a knight does (make it so that 4-6 blocks more then when the knight would start taking damage).
I think that archer spam should do damage based on how many shots were shot from that archer in the last 3-5 second. for example
\/# of shots prior to the shot|
0 - full damage
1 - half damage
2 - quarter damage rounded up
3 - quarter damage rounded up
4 - no damage
therefore to be a effective archer you need to be precise.

 

@Exid
But what is there to buff for knights, that will counter things such has spam?
Shielding up ladders?
Health boost?
Maybe if knights had four hearts, and slash was buffed up to two hearts of damage. Oh, and don't forgot we got to have shield bashing back.

 

Hmmmm. I think I'm gonna sum up of the things suggested here and offer my opinions.

This annoyed me (archers being able to run faster) <-- it's a terrible idea. This topic is about balancing archers if archers could move faster than knights then they would become an unstoppable wrecking ball It's hard enough chasing an archer who is only 4 blocks ahead of you It's like taking the bait. Not to mention even if spam was removed an archer would be able to pin u down simply because he holds speed in his court. (Reaction times the biggest part of gaming!) would be hard to react when your enemy is faster than you now wouldn't it.

Bombs - bombs were nerfed their effectiveness at long range is terrible now (seeming as distance was nerfed and not only that but damage radius) and at close range its even harder especially near trees archers can just jump out of a tree or an archer will just jump over the shielding knight who is afraid of his own bomb.

Range - Now that is something that should be addressed about an archer. ATM 3 archers can get together, fire blindly off into the distance with charged shots, and pin down an entire enemy base without even knowing it and picking up the fleeing kills. The distance archers can see by moving their screen to the other side should probably be as far as they can shoot cause that is all they can see. (just a suggestion)

Spam - Probably the thing most people wanna see be nerfed. I don't think it should e nerfed entirely maybe add 0.5 seconds more between shots.

My suggestion: LADDER'S
The biggest problem involving archers in my opinion a knight cant shield on a ladder without having to stop moving but an archer can charge his arrows while still moving up ladders this makes climbing a ladder with 1 ass up top with a bow impending a whole team from moving forward It's quite Over powered. So my suggestion is either archers lose the ability to climb ladders while charging a shot or knight's are allowed to move up ladders while shielding.

 

I think top changes mentioned so far for me are;

• making catas better and more flexible
• archer damage/stun changed to be more dynamic,
• low power shots take a tad longer to charge, and only damage but not stun, or stun but not damage when not shielded
• shielding while climbing ladders (albeit pretty slow movement if you ask me)

between those you don't even really have to nerf very much about archers anyway, and you give attackers more options, and take the power away from mobs of archers. Not been able to fire while moving on trees and ladders would make archers a little boring, and make supportive play on the frontline far to boring and difficult.

 

I concur that upgrading siege weaponry is the best solution to mass archer spam in buildings. That seems to be the most OP thing about archers ATM.

 

Yeah, alot of general knight combat ineffectiveness is caused by all the weird lag that seems to be getting worse too, not by flaws in game design, although I have to admit I've changed my mind about bombs a bit now, they could probably stand to launch people a little further and kill people in a greater radius, although getting rid of the bomberman effect needed to happen cos it made it possible to cover from them in some very illogical ways.

 

Catapult damage vs. stone blocks was nerfed heavily. Perhaps undoing that nerf a bit would improve things...

 

If you play well archer you're almost invincible, really.
You have to remove arrow spaming or make arrows innofensive when he is arrow spamming because actually when a archer and a knight are nearby a archer can easily run arrow spamming and kill him, that's really unfair because archers don't have to be as strong as there are in close combat.
So please balance them because it really makes me rage lol fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

Archer spamming is annoying, yes, but remember that being able to quickly deliver damage whilst moving with pace is an essential component to KAG's archers, in contrast to the historical archer which would 'camp' behind a line of knights, out of danger. Rather than totally removing or altering certain aspects, a combination of several smaller tweaks might be better, like reducing arrow damage at lowest shot power.

 

Agreed, I think changes to archers themselves should be minimal, and focus mainly on decreasing spam of high power shots at full distance and taking the edge off them at shorter distances by making rained arrows less effective. The changes to make the tactic as a whole less effective should come other elements, like a better cata, better bombjump or whatever.

 

I think that the fastest you should shoot arrows should be the exact time it takes to go from shield to jab, then shield again, then it would be all about skill, not spam.
(I don't have a problem with spam, it does get annoying, but a skillful knight should win, at least 1/2 of the duels.)

 

All of these ideas lack one important factor...realism. Yes, see the fact of the matter is you never know what may or may not happen. Archers at the moment are fine the way they are. I don't agree with this idea because once you nerf archer; how far will the next set of nerfs go? All of these ideas are based on a perfect, clean environment and war is not. You want a catapult to be one-hundred percent safe from archer fire, yet at the same time you are never safe on the battlefield. So whats next? You want knights to never blow up during a bomb jump? Or what else, a perfect concept design of a tower that a builder can create that no one can destroy? Please, we all want control of the battle and the map and teamwork is the only way to achieve that. Nerfing the same three classes again and again ruins the simple concept of this game. A small change to a small game equals a very large change since you have only three classes.

 

Sadly we have already seen something as close as possible to the "perfect" tower with people using the dirt background wall glitch. Anything that has no truly effective counter becomes tedious to attempt to counter. Having to blow up the tower one keg at a time without the slightest chance of collapsing it, and a janitor builder repairing any holes we make. If archers could not effectively counter catapults then knight/builder combos would have to counter it as well as any opposing ground forces, which in turn the archers could never truly counter. The archer as it is acts as a suppressing element, making the other classes jobs easier. Both with enemy troops and catapults, keeping them wary and countering their quite destructive and unblockable force. Then again the archers greatest annoyance is enemy archers, making them wary and less able to effectively suppress knights. So I agree with your ideas on nerfing but also when you actually get to see a "perfect" structure that undermines the balance of the game you can see how bad it can be.

 

the 'simple concept' of 3 or more archers being able to completely shut down an area of the battlefield for opponents no matter how many attackers are present is simply over powered in my opinion-

the fact that the game is played on a 2d field simply means that archers are much more efficient at hitting their targets as they are on a much more constricted field of play- this isnt a bad thing necessarily, it just means that in the future of the game we should expect the ability of archers to shoot changed (lets make a list of possible changes-dont have to adopt everyone one) to decrease the overall ability of archers from controlling the field by themselves as a class towards suppressing a field alongside the use of knights and builders-

archers are meant to suppress the field, assist in eliminating opponent knights during battles or slow them down and help pick off opponent builders plus destroy catapults (i dont think they should be able to inflict damage on shops.... that make no sense at all :p) they are not meant to dominate a field by themselves and require such a high response of counter archers to remove from their position-

that leads a game of three class dynamics into one class of shooting, till tickets run out or some form of attrition allows one side to take control of the opponents defensive position- which IMO is not what KAG should really boil down to in every public or clan war match

whomever wishes to defend the current state of archers will need to defend a current rate of fire that is too fast + powerful when more then three archers are present in a building/position (yes that means builders have had input but only minimal considering the impact archers have at enhancing the structure's use)

its time for archers to have a change in their dynamic to dominate a field, it does not need a total overhaul, mayhaps a tweak or two, who knows, i think ive seen something in the past in terms of changes from Geti coming along?

 

Since the game is 2d, by that right Knights should be able to cut arrows in half. Maybe we should increase in which archers take to fire one uncharged shot while increasing the range slightly more (higher velocity)

 

I just imagine what it would be like if archers had horses and thank God that they don't.

 

This may be a little off-topic, but archers remind me of the turrets in Soldat, MMs previous game. I once joined a server and hoped on a turret, since it was a 2d game, you could just shoot into a field of enemies and get so many kills. My highest kill-streak was 62 kills. All with the turret. i was just shooting off the screen and getting multikills. THis may not be relevant but just saying that things such as guns/archers can be very powerful on a 2d plain if they do not have some serious disadvantages. Once again sorry for the off-topicness.

 

You're right