Different base structure: Staircase

As many of you know, there's been an ongoing debate about towers vs. Staircases. However, this debate is extremely odd in that us supporting staircases are comparing the base structures and seeing that staircases seem superior, but those supporting towers are looking at the many variations of a fully developed tower and comparing it to the bare structure I'm supporting. They see that there's is superior because of its many features.

Basically what I'm saying is that my argument is:

Spoiler

this:
















is greater than:

And because I provided a bare staircase as my structure, they said:

Spoiler

is greater than:

Well we are looking at two completely different types of structures. There are two types:

1. Developed
2. Basic

I compared the basic to the basic, while they compared the basic to developed. This is not an attack, both parties are at fault for this simple miscommunication.

A basic structure is most commonly found as a quick, forward defense. Usually this will either be taken over, or secured by the team who built it. If it is secured by the team who built it, builders have the time to develop it. This can be anything from adding an archer tower, backwall, or workshops.

My original thread said people should make a staircase instead of a tower. People were confused at what I meant, so I showed them the basic structure. They laughed and asked what I was on, because how could a stupid little slab of stone compare to an awesome repairable tower, with an archers nest and team bridges? By comparing developed to basic, they seemed to be correct. I then defended my case by comparing the two basic structures here:

Spoiler

Then I got a reply that I didn't consider relevant until now.

He was thinking developed. He was thinking "Why even use two shitty structures when I can develop my tower and make it twenty times better than your staircase?"

And I never, throughout the whole 8 pages, provided a picture of a developed staircase. Well I'm here to say that a staircase can be developed just like a tower, and it's the base design that makes it slightly superior. Here's a developed staircase:

Spoiler

(This is a bit of a hybrid, I wasn't the one who built it, and I needed a quick screenie)

As you can see, staircases are just like towers, except they have a slightly different base design. Well remember what I said about how a basic structure is either secured or captured? Well during pre-game this really isn't a problem, because everything's secure. And although staircases are more efficient with build time, go ahead and make a tower if you really want to.

But as a forward defense the tower is no good. You want a structure that is tall, but won't collapse right away. And if god-forbid it gets captured, you want it to be much less useful for the enemy than it is for you. This is why the staircase is slightly superior.

Spoiler

this:







is slightly better than this:

Staircases, I think we can all agree, are usually better as quick forward defenses. And a developed staircase is just as good as a developed tower, is it not? I don't care what you think, build whatever makes you warm on the inside. But please understand why I personally prefer staircases.

I'm done arguing. Forget everything, and just compare the two in your mind. Try them out if you want, and decide which one you like better. The build it!

Happy building, KAG

 

I like these detailed building tutorials. Well done Noc, this is actually a really good pre phase tower/staircase as you stated.

 

If we're gonna talk quick, simple forward defenses for keeping enemy knights at bay, Line pieces are best.







Allows for quick transport for teammates over using boostpads, keeps knights from using slash jumps, and can be spammed numerous times in a row. Also allows for development. Best if erected in areas with lots of stone and wood to allow for quicker development of frontline/forward towers.

 

Stair cases cannot have arching points inside it and Depending on the needed size a 10x3 tower is better than a 10x5 staircase compared by resources. And both used as a bare structure or rather worthless. With only advantage being resource conservation, the building all happens at the beginning with unlimited resources. Anyways it is only personal preference considering that most people will ladder up to the door and just get through that way.

 

That would be more efficient if the bridge in the direction of the team's tent was stone, rather than a bridge. If you wanna talk efficiency, a stone block to vault off of is much faster than having to jump on top of a non-solid bridge. On the flipside, the bridge on the opposite side keeps knights at bay until more knights boost them over or they get wise and dig into the dirt so they can vault over.

 

Naw, the bridge is a boostpad. Allows up to 6 tiles of vertical height.

 

To use it though you have to get right next to it, it offers more launch but conversely can't be vaulted as quickly.

 

Look, I am not saying stairs are bad. Actually, I prefer stairs for a more solid base. Not as near base structures thou, cause the enemy could just run back untampered with the flag. (The stairs are not team only.)
Anyways, what you are showing us is a stair with a tower on top.

This is a very primitive example, but:
A developed actual stair?






When you think of it. Everything is a stair. But everything is also a tower. So, therefore, you can't really compare them.

Anyways, the problem with a stair is: The higher up, the weaker it gets.
But the problem with a tower is: It has the same thickness no matter where you dig, so the enemy doesn't have to climb up to find the weakest point like with the stairs.

It is dependant of the situation. Sometimes the tower is better, sometimes the stair. It is about strategy and personal preference.

 

If the staircases vs. towers debate was build on top of that picture, I'd happily destroy the tower and start again, you want a few more options for your archers there then shooting off into the distance ;)

 

Here's an example of a team only staircase...















Though it's not so much a staircase as a triangular tower.

I dunno about the rest of you guys, but when I hear staircases, I think this;








But I guess that Noc is arguing that this structure technically counts as a staircase (EVEN THOUGH IT BARELY FUNCTIONS AS ONE.)

Spoiler

Team safe stairs.


Knee-cappers for archers to safely snipe.


And finally boostpads on the right to allow quick, easy scaling up the wall.

I'll post up a few examples of "stairs" that killatron came up with that are great for quickly reaching skybridges in a few minutes.

 

which is in fact the same as the most basic stair noc has shown us:







a high stack of blocks with an easy way to vault over.
PLUS: noc's design is wider, so it will sustain more damage.
(am I doing it right noc? same development stage?)

 

Yeah, except the enemy can use it. Are you guys entirely missing the fucking point? Isn't that the reason we go through all this testing is to find efficient ways for your own team to get around, but to block the enemy? That design is fucking stupid. A line piece with boost pads on either side allows your knights to jump SIX TILES (instead of only vaulting 4) and keeps enemy knights away. And besides, a line piece is TEMPORARY. Like during the initial rush. Spammable, can be built off of... Fine. Let me show you an example.

(which means I have to open KAG again, you fucks...)




Step 1. Simple line piece. Initial rush, get to the mid field and place six stone tiles. Then place a boost pad on your team's side. After your knights clear out the enemies, jump over and place another.

Step 2. REINFORCE IT. A single bomb can take out a line piece without any sort of support, so castle backwall (staggered like pictured so it's much more difficult for bombs to destroy) can hold it up. Might be beneficial to place it on your team's side immediately after placing the stone tiles.

Step 3. Begin fattening the tower, add a few notched doors and a way for your team to get back and forth.

Step 4. Profit. This is where you can get creative. I just threw on a Tooth Puller so people get the general idea.


What I'm saying is that a simple line piece can evolve into literally ANY kind of structure, but with a staircase, you're kinda limited on what you can do.

AND NO, THE BOOST PAD IS NOT AT ALL THE SAME AS THAT STAIRCASE YOU SHOWED, NOC AND GOFIO.

 

What Gofio is talking about is that your design in the beginning is extremely vulnerable to bombs or a builder taking a couple of seconds, while the mini-staircase has a two tile protection. The enemy is unlikely to move backwards in the beginning of the game if they somehow just got over it as well. (You can add a door for the flat side so your teamate can get over) I personally don't like boostpads too much because they seem to glitch sometimes and fail to work properly. Or my teammates utterly fail at understanding how to use it.

Also this statement above is comepletely false. These stone staircases are easily turned into either a traditional stone tower. Just add stone to make it higher add doors to allow teamates to go up and down on either side, and just continue from there to the normal tower design. Or make one with a slight staircase design, basically what Noc has presented. Or it could just turn into the same thing that you yourself posted

 

It really doesn't matter what style you use, it will end up to the preference of the builder. Personally, I see that if an enemy soldier bomb jumps over a staircase he can move up the staircase to break any doors that prevent his team to pass through, but this can be prevented by making staircases in different styles.

Additionally, I see that the earliest staircases 2-3 blocks wide could be made into towers later on in the round

 

I have to lean toward Bones argument, I can understand how you save mats, and I think it is good, at limited times, a basic stricture has more capabilities no matter what you say.

I could go into detail, but it is pointless with people as stubborn as you (your like my mum)

The last thing I will say is, Bone, I thought you were an experienced builder? You should know not to have an exit of a building more than 8 tiles, you number 3 and 4 building would be sufficient with only one notch, then one stone block, after that comes what entrance you would like.

 

Just to point out that the enemy can still get over it if they are a knight using the "jump slash"...thing.

 

thanks for the idea. yes, linepieces are a good base for anything, but do you actually see that you can make stairs out of them too?
also, linepieces and small stairs, are two different ways of getting teammates up, without helping the enemies.
but may I suggest this to be added to the linepiece?







its noobfriendly now: they will jump, and if they hold it they will auto-use the jump pad, and they wont complain and place ladders.
</br>--- merged: Jun 8, 2012 3:24 PM ---</br>

that is wisdom: the way of the staircase.
I forgot to think of it, but hes got a point: a staircase is the ideal base for a tower, as a first step.