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Shield Bash Balance

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vidar, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. Vidar

    Vidar KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    143
    We have all had a few days to get use to incorporating shield bashing back into the mix, I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on the subject. I have some grievances with it’s current form.

    The only strong opinion I have about shield bashing is that when spammed (repeatedly pushing forward while clicking the right mouse button) it nullifies every close range attack by an opposing knight or archer. I don’t believe a shield bash should stun and nullify all offensive knight attacks, particularly a full slash. It’s not viable to take the time to charge up for a full slash currently, because you know it can be anticipated, stuffed, and stun locked instantly with a shield bash. A full slash and shield bash should not interact in this way. There should be a pay off for taking the time to fully charge your slash in knight combat. (This point is what I would appreciates comments on the most.)

    There is simply no way to counter shield bashing, other then spamming your shield, which seems to take away from the tactical aspect of knight combat and promotes this perpetual shield bash fighting. I feel this needs a remedy.

    Between all of the knight’s capabilities, there should be a sense of check and balances. I haven’t completely reached a consensus in my mind over these topics, these are just some initial opinions and I would appreciate comments and suggestions.

    Side note: I apologize if I should have initially posted this in the Knight Sub Section, I wanted it to generate some discussion and General Discussion has a bit more visibility. If it needs to be moved it's completely understandable, and thank you for doing so.
     
  2. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    1,916
    It's supposed to work like this: If you time it right, you can counter a slash with a shield bash, but if you time it wrong, you get slashed. It currently does not work like this, because it's a bit buggy.
    Not allowing shield bash to be spammed would be best.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Beef and Vidar like this.
  3. MCrypa

    MCrypa Haxor

    Messages:
    562
    Just like old times.
    Those days were the shining days of shieldbash.
     
  4. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    3,620
    Thing that happens right now a lot is that if you hop bash you will win, shit is OP as fuck, learning to hop bash even on people's heads is god tier, sometimes if you have enough lag with the other person they can't even SEE you do it and it looks like you're just waking into them and jabbing them as you hop bash jab.
     
    Rayne likes this.
  5. Maverick

    Maverick Haxor

    Messages:
    352
    Indeed there definitely needs to be some sort of counter to a shield bash. Before, in the older builds, you could counter a shield bash with a slash but whenever I try the same technique now I still get bashed ;'(
     
    Evan5567 likes this.
  6. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    The timing has changed a lot in getting the slash off, the problem is mostly that shieldbashing is much easier, you don't have to tap when really close to the person, before it was almost as easy as it is now. It would be nice if it required much more timing to shieldbash properly.
     
  7. Downburst

    Downburst Mindblown Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,813
    I think it's overpowered. I dont think it should stun an already charged slash.
     
    Wixmef, Contrary and Vidar like this.
  8. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Get some proper yomi all up in this bitch.

    Slash > Bash > Jab > Slash sounds about right.
     
  9. Vidar

    Vidar KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    143
    What I'm leaning towards after reading the comments:

    Maybe when a full slash and a shield bash collide, the damage is blocked and the attacker is bounced back a bit, but the attacker suffers no stun? That was you can recover quickly and continue the fight without feeling you've been overly penalized for trying to full slash. A basic block against a full slash would still cause a defender to break his stance. Shield bashing a jab or moving opponent would still cause that awesome bash/stun effect we all love.

    Also as Blueluigi said, significantly narrowing the window of opportunity on a shield bash.

    Sometimes these shield bashing contests between knights feel like Kag: Pinball Version.

    Hop bashing and spamming I don't have any ideas on.

    Edit: I just read Contrary's post and I really like that too. Rock, paper, scissor approach. I'm conflicted.
     
  10. amuffinattack

    amuffinattack Bison Rider

    Messages:
    128
    Shield bashing is there to help counter slash dominated fighting. I do agree spamming it is OP but i still think, if time correctly, it should stop a full slash. Before it was just two knights charging slashes bouncing back and forth waiting for the other to make the first last mistake. (with good players this can take a long time) Besides I have had times when shield bashing just plain fails me but then again I don't spam it and I go for the one well timed bash. Boxpipe and I have a close play style and when him and I came head to head before shield bashing it was just horrible, It took us forever to kill the other due to us both charging and waiting.

    Edit: Besides slashing is slow, it shouldn't be done in that close quarters anyway, It makes sense to me...But thats just me.
     
    Wixmef, Rayne, FuzzyBlueBaron and 3 others like this.
  11. Mister_Meatball

    Mister_Meatball Base Burner

    Messages:
    135
    I want to start the KAG space program with my shield.
     
    Viken likes this.
  12. Ghozt

    Ghozt Haxor

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    1,083
    Shield-bashing doesn't really take skill anymore, I find just hitting someone with your shield bashes them, before it only really worked on slashes, now your you just jump on and push people for ages (as said) with your shield, I find the easiest way to counter this is just to crouch.

    If you come up to someone that you know shield bashes at the time, just crouch and then when he goes through jab him. I love telling noobs to bash me then they ask why it isn't working. :P
     
    KnightGabe13 likes this.
  13. amuffinattack

    amuffinattack Bison Rider

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    128
    Bashing has never taken skill. In my opinion, just jump and shield in their direction.
     
  14. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

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    Video I posted in testing a while ago:

     
  15. killatron46

    killatron46 Cata Whore Donator
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]

    Messages:
    808
    Yeah, like in the vid Contrary posted, shield bashes should not be like that. I like the idea of triangle combat, but it should always be overcome by skill, so really it would be a circle, with skill being in the middle and the three attack forms on the outside.

    While the Archer Balance thread was still hot I never heard anyone say it should go in the Archer Sub forum, so I don't see why it can't stay here.

    Its not like moving it there will keep Kouji from moderating it anyway. (*poke* :p) // :P
     
  16. GloriousToast

    GloriousToast Haxor Donator

    Messages:
    1,463
    shield can be op but they are prone to lag very much, as you cannot do split second blocks of arrows or bombs thanks to the lag. the way i see it both sides should take a bit of stun
     
  17. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    RPS approach is good, but needs some skill involved, perhaps shield bashing in the wider window is very weak and suffers very little stun to the enemy but a properly timed attack/defense actually provides stun for a proper counter attack.

    Example: Slash a jab/Early slash on a shieldbash = Enemy stunned (Very VERY minimal as double slash already takes care of tihs)
    Shieldbash (SB hereafter) on a slash midair leaves them with a little stun, enough time for 2 jabs or a slash (at 75%) meaning that you have to be pretty much fucking SPOT on at charging that slash RIGHT AFTER the SB
    If you jab someone right during a shieldbash attempt it should leave them stunned a little as they hit the floor allowing a second jab in there or so.

    In other words allow 'criticals' in the formula, whereas X > Y > Z > X if you hit X with Z in the current time window (Let's say a .5second window) you get the regular 'win', that is you win that go around but not enough to get out a hit off of it unless you're pretty good. If you hit the critical time window (let's say .2second or .1second) you get the 'critical' win, or that perfect slice that allows you a little more freedom in it, let's say that while the regular would give you time to get off a jab, the crit would give you time for a slash.

    The very nature of the attacks however leads to some changing here that's a problem, if you block a shieldbash with a jab and are only punished by jabs, you always shieldbash, if jabs can be punished by slashes and slashes do much more damage (double slash 1hkoing essentially) you will never jab. This invariably breaks it without something else (as proposed, yes I know it's a bad idea but it's an idea) fixing the gaps to allow scissors to be as effective against paper as paper is against rock.
     
    Antman likes this.
  18. Brandon816

    Brandon816 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    262
    Here's an idea, just add a stamina bar and make raising your shield take a small chunk out of that. Doing it in combination with other actions, like jumping, takes a much larger chunk out of it. After a while of disuse, the bar starts regaining energy.

    Yes, shield bash is still OP, but you can only use it a few times before tiring yourself out. You better hope there aren't any archers on the other team to shoot you now that you spent all your stamina and can't raise your shield again to defend yourself while retreating.
     
  19. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    3,620
    Stamina system for a single thing would make no sense (and suck), adding stamina for everything would be BLEH.

    generally it's better to actually try to balance something and not just throw a limit on it and call it a day.
     
    Contrary and amuffinattack like this.
  20. amuffinattack

    amuffinattack Bison Rider

    Messages:
    128
    I don't think that would work. It just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. For one it make archers to good against knights, they could only shield a few arrows before being chain shot over and over. Also limiting a knights movement/fighting capabilities by limiting the amount actions they can have is just a horrible nerf to any class.

    You could possibly add a timing check, where you need to shield maybe .5 seconds before you hit or something. I think this would cause more issues and not really be possibly. There server would need to do a lot of checks besides what the velocity check that it does now. I don't really know, This isn't a problem with an easy answer. In the end shield bashing is changeable server side so server owners can make their own changes to it as they wish.