[844][Gen] Minor balance Issues and Suggestions

I've been in KAB for a while and I believe I finally understand some things. I really prefer beta over classic but there are some minor issues that bug me quite. In the following thread I'd like to discuss some of them as well as add some suggestions/requests for things I believe would be quite handy in the game.

1. Knight combat
This is the main topic I'd like to focus on in this thread, it won't be about jumping around or other tactics but rather about being stunned by a hit. As of now taking pretty much any damage in a fight causes you to get stunned and pretty much doomed but in many cases a full stun is not really necessary. I'd love addition of what I as a dota player call ministun, a feature I believe is in classic and I dare to say it's one of the few things that classic does better. What I mean is rather than being unable to do anything but move, the ministun would only interrupt any attack that was being executed but would not stop the knight from quickly raising their shield and shielding themself from any following jabs.

The issue: Right now, I've been told that devs dislike jab-spam and added the feature that one get stunned if they jab at a shielding enemy, but still what I often see and experience is knights jab-spamming while jumping over you trying to get a jab at you from an angle you're not shielding, that's fine by me, but what is not is that when they manage to do so they will stun you and get a couple more free jabs instead. Second if you manage to stun an enemy by shielding their jab, a healthy mind would expect that that is a window for a free counter jab, but instead when my jab's almost complete they recover from stun and begin their own jab, as a result they will take damage but will manage to hit me back before my animation finishes and I raise my shield again, making shielding jabs very useless tactic that pretty much has no advantage compared to backing of and preparing a slash. But my solution would be that after they're stunned by them jabbing at my shield, I'd jab them which would result in a ministun that would make them unable to perform a jab of their own within the following split second or interrupting one already on the way (but not stopping them from raising their shield and blocking any other following jabs), making it actually a valid tactic as I will take no damage back.

The other issue is that being caught off-guard by a double-slash is insta-kill which I believe is a bit too cruel. Similarly I see no reason why being slashed when not having shield raised should result in a stun. Instead I believe that idle targets (moving or attacking, but not shielding) should only be ministunned by jabs or slashes, preventing them from attacking but not from blocking any following attempts to jab them. Only shielding knights should be stunned by a slash but on the other hand a knight preparing a slash should be stunned by a jab, a bit of rock-paper-scissors shall we?

Examples:
Now: A not shielding knight is jabbed, looses one heart, is stunned and open for a following one or two jabs
My way: A not shielding knight is jabbed, looses one heart and is not being able to counter-attack but able to quickly raise their shield to block any following jabs, if they fail to do so they'll most likely catch another jab.

Now: A not shielding knight is slashed, looses two hearts and is stunned, making himself open for a follow-up jab for another heart of damage
My way: A not shielding knight is slashed loosing two hearts and ministunned, having chance to quickly raise shield and not loose any more health to jabs.

Now: A shielding knight is slashed, looses no health but is stunned, open for a follow-up jab.
My way: No change

Now: A not shielding knight is slashed by a fully charged slash, looses two hearts and is stunned open for a second slash that kills him
My way: A not shielding knight is slashed by a fully charged slash, looses two hearts and is ministunned, if they react quickly they can raise their shield and shield the second slash, loosing no health but getting stunned and opened for a follow-up jab after which they can re-raise their shield surviving with one heart. If they fail to react and don't raise their shield after the first slash, they'll get killed by the second one.

Now: A shielding knight is slashed by a fully charged slash, looses not health but is stunned and open for the second slash for two hearts, after that they are stunned again and open for a follow-up jab and possibly another one resulting in a death.
My way: A shielding knight is slashed by a fully charged slash, looses no health but is stunned and open for the second slash for two hearts and a ministun that gives them a chance to raise shield and not loose any more health to a jab-spam

Also this is what I believe is that a lot of people are whining about, in classic, a builder could ministun a knight with their pickaxe (or shovel or whatever), if the knight was noob they would keep trying to jab him over and over but instead would get just stun-locked but if they just raised their shield, blocked the next strike and then they begun their jab-spam, the builder had no chance as they were the one stun-locked instead. With the addition of being stunned when striking a shield with the pickaxe, I believe this would give a builder a chance to fight a knight again but would still be balanced, similarly this is what I miss when I fight as an archer with the knife. Without the ministun, trying to kill a knight with pickaxe or knife, half-heart damage just doesn't matter compared to being stunned by a jab.

I believe my suggested change would affect larger fights minimally, instead only one on one fights would be affected, given a bit more space for tactics. Rock-paper-scissors mechanic: I see you charging a slash, my best chance is either to back off or lunge forward and jab you and stun you for another free jab, I see you jabbing at me, I raise my shield to stun you and get a free hit, I see you shielding, I charge a slash of my own stunning you making you open for a jab, I let you charge a slash to full, well I'm in a pickle. Right now it's more of a slash-spam.

2. The other issues
I see no reason why should knights be able to damage enemy trap blocks, not only that they can't block them anyhow but also they are made of stone and knights are unable to damage any other stone structure.

All these spikes changes are nice and stuff, but as of now spike traps are pretty much useless, not only they can be easily avoided, but if they do their job and hurt the knight for a heart or two they'll just drop a bomb and destroy one or two or even three pieces 30-stone-worth pieces of equipment. I believe as of now spikes deserve a bit more resistance to bombs.

Workbenches cannot be removed by team-mates and block the area. I see no reason why one should never be able to build again in that area because some other builder found it necessary to build another workbench (just next to another). Similarly if anyone wants to easily grief and ruin someone else's work they can just build a workbench there, fortunately this doesn't work so well on front line as the enemy can destroy your workbenches.

I can see why to make buckets affect team-mates as well but it again only opens a way for douches and other griefers to stun-lock you near a puddle.

The current mechanics of trees are a bit too complicated, I wouldn't really mind having to shop down a tree in two steps but the problem is that the seeds often don't replant and decay. Though anyone with at least a half brain that been around for a day or two will immediately understand that they need to replant the trees, but 90% of players I've met either have no idea or just can't be bothered to do so, resulting into a shortage of trees, I've played quite a few games where a team was totally out of trees or seeds and without a wood supply. I'd like to see seeds being sold at the trader for a coin or two but more I'd say that when a tree falls, one of its seeds should immediately be automatically replanted at its base, regrowing the tree at the same spot where it was unless the working wants otherwise.

3.Balance
I think that held items should really be immune to attack at least from team-mates, having a keg or drill destroyed by slashes or even arrows from a guy that is standing inside you or just behind you is just not cool, I've had enough of knights destroying ladders so destroyed drills are really unnecessary.

Similarly I don't think an attack should be performed when a knight clicks on a button, or inside inventory or when they use drill, again it destroys ladders and other equipment. Second, I think when an arrow is cancelled an attack should again not be performed, the knife-jab should only be performed if previously idle or moving.

I believe if the ministun idea is considered, archer would be again a bit more viable in melee combat. I quite don't understand why a drawing archer should be able to move so fast as they do now (0,7 means nothing).

As much as I like water ammo, the water arrows are rather not as much powerful as the other arrows, just compared to fire arrows that can get an insta-kill on an archer or builder. They are really good on knights and supporting people but anything I ever achieved with water arrows (counting only its stunning ability, not the lucky direct hit-kills on people) was with two arrows, therefore I believe water arrows should be distributed in two per stack.

Similarly bomb arrows, again compared to fire arrows they actually can again get an insta-kill on archer or builder, newly not giving them chance to survive even when near water, but distributing them by only one per workshop is a bit underwhelming, I believe at least two or three per workshop would make sense. ( Not sure whether it's a bug or a new buff, as the bomb arrows explode so much earlier now, but it could change things a bit but I still think at least two arrows per workshop, as the workshop takes a whole migrant, is desirable)

I'd also like to see a bit distinct skin on the air drop supplies and normal crate, perhaps having built boxes have team colour features?

Finally, fire is just not dangerous enough, I've tossed a satchel on one of those wooden structures in challenge only to see the bot knight throw sad smiles at me for another 15 or so seconds. What I think is that blocks on fire, beside setting you on fire, should also deal additional damage of their own when near them. That way standing inside a burning building should result in death or at least serious damage, right now it's only fear that tells us not to do so, the damage is actually pretty low.

4.My idea/suggestion on new content
What I've been thinking about is a sort of racks that would be built on workbench and then "planted" similar to a seed on any solid block, taking up two squares (the one it was planted in and one above it), it would naturally not need to grow or anything, it would be instantly ready to use. Anyone would then be able to hit E and place their currently held item which would be held centred at the upper square, for different effects. They would not be solid and thus not disturbing movement, such as crates do, they would also (preferably) be immune to conventional attacks and they would as well be suspended in air not falling through should the block bellow them become non-solid, such as doors. Anyone, friend or foe could select the "release" option from the E menu should they be close, releasing the item again for C pick-up or possibly being immediately picked up , when it is in the rack, it would be unpick-able by C. The rack would initially require a solid block to be placed upon but after it would hold on the backwall without problems. Only one item per rack.
The desired uses would be:
Crate- would not impair movement as it does now when approached from certain angles and also would not be moved around so much (at all) by nearby movement
Sawmill- would not work at all, items could be passed around it without fear of them to be destroyed, people could move around without being killed.
Bucket- would stay inside, protected from random slashes, ready to be used on any fire.
Lantern- would be suspended in the air, lighting the area, protected from slashes and from being moved by nearby actions.
Boulder- again protected from slashes, not impairing movement and not fulling and crushing people should the block bellow them cease to provide a solid ground.
Dinghy, Sponge, Keg, Mine, anything - ready to be used, not active (mine), not solid, protected from attacks, not being movable around, many uses.

The idea behind this is to have items such as crates, buckets, sawmills and other items that are just nuisance to store anywhere but in storage be stored but also visible, who would look for a bucket of water in storage, but if it's nicely placed there it can be quickly used to put out fires but on the other hand, compared to just being dropped there on ground, it won't be affected by nearby construction or low-grade battle (No bombs). I'm not a programmer but just using some of the mechanics that catapults or even players use to hold items would work I hope.


I'm looking forward to any constructive critique or opinions about what I just wrote, especially the ministun option and balance area.

 

I'd say too late now, not really sure how to remove a thread.

 

plz make a tl;dr

 

I agree with almost everything you have said. One thing I slightly disagree is that I think fire is quite dangerous as it is. It destroys wooden structures easily enough if they are not extinguished. Making it even more powerful could result in wooden structures not standing any chance.

 

I'm ok with fire damage to structures, what I disagree with is that a knight or anyone can just walk or stand in a burning structure while taking only one heart damage total. I'm only suggesting the fire to do a separate instance of damage to people standing inside them, beside the damage from them being on fire themselves, so that people standing inside burning structure would take twice as much damage as long as they stay inside. The speed of wood burning would be unchanged unchanged. I don't think this would change anything about speed or danger of fire to structures themself, if it's on fire you'll have to extinguish it all anyway.

 

im so tempted to quote the whole thing :p

tl;dr for those frightened of large group of letters - remove stun on damage and break attack instead. allow raising shield for the second blow.

1) i kind of like the ministuns idea. right now the only valid tactics is slash spam. being killed by a jab-spamimg noob was annoying in classic, but sincerely - how often did that happen? only if taken by surprise with low hp or if you also are a jab-spammer. even mediocre players take out jab-spammers any time of the day with a double slash. now in classic they nerfed jabs way too much, to a point where you jab = you die. in classic you could perform a quick landing thrust breaking your opponent slash, it was a really hard move and rewarding if enemy had 1 heart left, and its gone in beta.

2) i agree on the trap blocks, workbenches, buckets.
spikes are a complicated matter and deserve a separate thread. i will just say here that the attack delay was a bad idea.
i disagree on trees - careless logging should lead to deforesting, while careful to abundance. besides trees already regrow on the same place most of the times. but i totally agree that seeds should be available at trader. and also - allow fletching on logs or remove it altogether. it is so painful to see derpy archers crewing your team economy by falling young trees for a handful of arrows, while they have a fucking supply workshop right above the hall.

3) agree on the held items, bomb arrows, boxes and fire. water ammo is mostly for putting out fires, not combat.

4) i see little use for that rack personally. crates never bother me, there are ways to secure saw. but it would be nice if you could turn off the saw. buckets could use bigger sprite to be more visible. lantern could be suspended in air on ladders like in classic - it was a great feature

 

Would these racks if set up right have workshops drop into them and evenly spread items equally among players. Such as you can have a military shop drop bombs and arrows in the rack and when knights and archers run through them they will auto gear up. I think this would be better than having a one guy take everything and would solve alot of problems with 80 arrows on one archer spamming a knight who is spamming 4 bombs... I'm not complaining about spam, but it's a tad annoying spawning in as a archer and having nothing, same with a knight buts its not as bad

 

It honestly does get annoying, mainly as archers though. What is the point of being an archer when you can't have any of the fun arrows??

 

I'd like to just point out that I don't want to remove the stun entirely, slashing shielding enemy would still stun them, as well as jabbing a slash preparing enemy ( for a bit of rock-paper-scissors mechanic)

About racks, to be honest I don't find them so good either, the idea was born in my mind a while back when farming wood for stone was possible and I was getting annoyed when people were CONSTANTLY taking my crate with supplies (such as spare wood, gold and seeds), secondly what annoyed me was when I prepared a bucked with water in wooden structures for extinguishing and when I came back it was gone. So a rack of a kind would solve these problems and add a few more uses but right now it wouldn't really add much. It would still be nice to make boulders and crates non-solid and safe from saws though.

Not quite, I was more thinking about just a manual operation only. Your problem is common but can't really be countered, right now, every archer or knight gets one bomb or a stack of arrows of each available kind, those that want more will have to go to the workshop but then will end up taking everything they can, it's about character if they take it all or leave some for others.

 

a solution would be locked chest - only owner would be able to open or move it and it would be indestructible for team mates. quite easy to create a mod with it.

PS archers sux

 

I see big issues with griefers locking away your teams stone with lockable crates. IMO not the best idea. Although if done right could be a potential mechanic. I just don't see it as of big importance atm.

 

I am now well aware of my mistakes and sincerely apologise.
For my defence, the actual volume of topics to discuss is minimal, it's just my need to explain, justify and backup my points that made it so long. Either way I will take this into account, should I feel like making another thread, and make them more focused on a single topic.

 

Yea a high ping is already a gun shot to your performance, but a stun mechanics is like sticking a finger the bullet hole and wiggling it around.

 

Not really, I'm perfectly fine with getting stunned when shielding (although getting stun locked is not so much fun either, perhaps not being able to wind up another slash for a second after successful hit would do?), my problem is with getting stunned when not shielding, as I mentioned before it leads to taking even more damage and usually death, I believe a knight that fails to shield a slash should be given a chance to live, not to just drop stunned and wait for his opponent to slash again or jab him to death. Getting stunned when shielding is ok, because that's what slashes are about, countering shielding knights.

On the other hand is the issue with getting stunned when jabbing a shielding knight, once again I'm ok with it, the problem is when I stun an enemy by shielding their jab, I automatically want to use the opportunity to jab them, which is usually a successful attempt, but they manage to recover from their stun and jab me back before I return back to shielding, making this strategy very ineffective as it leads only to trading hits, which I think is not fair when I've taken my time to put some brains into the fight rather than just jabbing like mad. I hope you see my problem here, we have just mad jabbing at each other, trading hits, and opposed to this we have one knight trying to counter jab-spam but instead again ends in trading hits.

Now when you mention it, I actually recall these issues, my attacks not registering even though I made them before the enemy, usually ending in my demise without dealing a single point of damage.

 

B847
Archers: Unsurprisingly Slower than Knights by a Long Shot
0.7 Speed during means a lot to an archer; in my personal experience, I find I can't escape knights without aide [Sliding/Slashing are the best means of travel, next to a bomb, two bombs, more bombs, a catapult, or a boat ram], and I have had further issues with my knife getting blocked by an overly rapid death or flurried jabs, every time. [So either have a Shielded Knight after you as you try to suppress them, or have a tide of slashes after you]
Out of all the arrows I shot, only Mounted Bows can mess with a Knight's shielding.
Fire is hilariously better suited at stunning than Water, since they run in a straight line [excluding jumping/turning around], and don't seem to shield or attack when on fire. [Water simply lets you have a jab in, or douses a fire]
Fire is pretty fun, actually, either it goes out of control, or people immediately snuff it out; but it is still more of a danger to those directly hit, or structures without water directly available.
Bomb Ammo Shops are only really able to occupy one Archer that has to run back and forth through the hall, to shoot whomever in the face, or at x/y/z weak point.

Stabs, and How Baby Jesus Hates Me
I never win in a Shield-Jab Frenzy, everyone is miraculously one step ahead of my shield, or my stabs are one step behind their shields. [Somehow I'm better at surviving slashes, a weird thought, but that is if they aren't in Jab-close; ie, read above]
Did I mention Double Jumping still exists? Well, with hit detection you can do a Ground-Aerial Double B Jump [Apparently hard, but sometimes seen], or a Double Ground B Jump [Easy, just spam Two on the Floor], probably upwards of a Double Ground-Aerial B Jump [Aka, the Triple B Jump, and Theoretical].

Spoiler: Freak Accident with a Bomb Arrow, and Chained Aerial B Jumps

In a recent match up, someone Bomb Jumped off of a Bomb Arrow I shot, that landed next to their head, and flew off the top of the map, and behind the Far Right Hall, I don't know what happened there.
And I've seen a Knight chain Bomb Jumps so that they could hug the side of a tower, whilst bombing it for either purchase, or kills.

Ecology, or the Delicate Economy of Tree Hugging, or Seed Coddling
Regardless I guess, the issue with seeds is that seedlings, and simple seeds are so easily destroyed, I end up throwing Saw Mills at the enemies, or into water, and the seeds into a far away patch of natural blocks because the strange C-grab priorities are pretty fucked.
[ Wood ( Turns out picking up a log allows you and your teammates to collide with it, and clog hallways ) << Seed, (sometimes practical though) <<< Saw, Dinghy (mostly impractical) ]