Archer changes general

Wat...
you have obviously never seen an archer taker down your entire tower with triple bomb arrows. From a place where nobody can reach him.
bomb arrows are so much better its not even funny.

 

Well... I mean if you have me on your team. You know...

 

Ignoring the fact that Kegs are infinitely cheaper than Bomb Arrows, sure.
I have to play knight for a while in order to get the money to have one chance at a triple bomb arrow attack.

 

Technically, three bomb arrows are only 30 coins more than a keg, and two bomb arrows have the precision needed to take out a vertical tower at it's weakest spot. So for 100 coins instead of 120, you can easily take out a 2-4 block wide vertical tower.

That being said, this is assuming you can get anywhere close without the enemy swarming you.

This is so true.

If an archer's bomb arrows make a building collapse, he should get like, 1-3 coins per every block that collapsed as a result of this maneuver. Also if his fire arrows burn down a building, he should get 1-2 coins per block burned and destroyed by this effect. I like this suggestion a lot.

@Kouji's post, I agree with your points about what the archer can do. It makes sense, the harrasment and etc, but it's not enough.
Noob 1 joins as builder, builds a 10 block stone wall and puts two ladders on his team's side, and his nooby wall can be an effective defense for as long as a couple minutes and even longer if the other team is like "wut r bombs".
Noob 2 joins as a knight and kills a bunch of archers, builders, and other knights with his awesome slashing and stabbing abilities.
Noob 3 joins as archer, fires arrows at knights, and they block them. He doesn't try getting in close with a fully charged shot to stun them because that's really stupid fucking logic to go on and therefore he tries shooting at builders and archers that are a long way away. Assuming they don't dodge them, he also has to land 2-3 hits with accurate aiming and careful timing to ensure he can even hit the bastards. He would charge out with bomb arrows... if he knew they existed. But his innate class abilities don't really scream "hey my class is made for destroying... buildings!" that's what the builder would seem to be for.

I think the biggest issue with archer is that it doesn't make any sense. Intuitively, I pick a builder class and say "Okay, he builds and destroys and repairs, makes sense." or a Knight and I say "Okay so he gets in close and cuts the enemies down, makes sense. Also look I see my teammates using bombs, way cool." or an Archer and I say "Oh an archer, that's long distance sniping at enemy guys like in Robin Hood, right? Oh huh, knights can shield against all my attacks. That seems really stupid, what is the point of being a long range class if it doesn't perform its best at long range?"

Bring back long range shield sniping, remove close range shield sniping. Increase damage to 1.5 hearts at extreme range to reward sniping archers. Buff coin gain for destroying buildings. Maybe even add in grappling while shooting?? (I'm iffy on that one.)

Point being, make the archer make sense.

 

Totally agree, except for this part. I think the problem here is not one of making sense, it is one of balance. Sometimes you have to defy logic a little in order to make the game fair. As Contrary aptly pointed out in an earlier post, with just a few archers, you can make a tower unassailable to almost any number of knights, because they have to cover a lot of ground, all the while getting wailed on by arrows that they can only partially block/avoid. By the time they get to the base of the defensive structure, they're really whittled down or dead, even if they're very skilled.

According to other oldies around here, that shield breaking mechanic you described actually existed at one point, and was removed for the reason Contrary mentioned. Since the mechanics in that department are still pretty similar, I suspect that the same problem would recur if long range shield stun were reinstated.

I fear that if too big a swing in balance is put in (long range shield break), it will elicit a knee-jerk reaction and cause the developers to revert to how it was prior to the change (unbalanced in the other direction) and vow never to touch it again.

 

I also think it should only count for single-fire arrows (not legolas shot) and it should be at extreme range, not medium range. I'm talking 30+ tiles, so you'd have to build a helluva tall tower or fire a very long distance away. Also two or three knights shielding at the base should negate all the arrows for the most part, but a single knights should get rek'd.

And I agree, it might end up being overpowered. I'm not suggesting long range literally pierces shields, more of that it allows a well timed second shot from another archer or a stun so a knight can get in. The main issue in classic was that it knocked a shield down and stunned an enemy at pretty much any range at max charge, but we didn't have the varieties of charge shots that we do now. My suggestion is very long range -only- to benefit sniping as archers should do.

 

I could try to record some archer footage, it will unfortunately be sub-20. Worthwhile?

 

Considering the massive spread archers have on their shots, knights are actually better snipers than archers.

 

The spread for archers arrows is really annoying!

 

If archers are on such a different learning curve than knights and builders, why is it a sin to say that learning curve should be changed?

If people enjoy playing all classes and get roughly the same time in all classes, yet their skill in builder and knight is so much higher than in archer, shouldn't that be reason enough to do something? Balance isn't about the best players or the developers, it's about the average player. I'm happy for you if you've spent enough time to understand how to make a class useful, but if you're making a class useful in niche areas then it's not really a useful class. Siege engines are late and mid game weapons. Games can be won before siege engines are built.

Why shouldn't a game also be balanced around average players? That makes the most sense anyways. If most players are average, then thats where balance should be. I'm not saying that people who are really good shouldn't also find balance, but it should be put in after initial balance is found.

I think special arrows also shouldn't be able to be blocked. A flaming arrow not burning down a wooden shield? Crazy. A bomb not breaking a wooden shield? Also crazy. At least it would make special arrows more useful when you're in danger.

 

I find it interesting myself how dismissive people are who say archers are balanced.
The primary reasoning being "you just suck".

Yeah, maybe I do. Maybe I suck at the game in general. And yet I still manage to play Knight just as well as anyone else.

If a terrible player can still do well with Knight, but fail at Archer, that's imbalance. Unless the Knight was deliberately designed to be easier to play? Oh, wait, that would be imbalance too in a PVP setting. Which as far as I'm aware is all that this game is.

Why does it seem to be a cardinal sin (@Kouji) to even acknowledge the possibility you're wrong? Last time I checked no one would die from testing the possibility.

Actually, I'm kind of baffled. I've re-read @Kouji's post(s) several times and I don't see anywhere that he actually says what it is Archers are "good" at. He just says we're all stupid bad archers for not knowing. What is it that makes Archers good? Is there a hidden skill I can unlock that allows me to puncture a knights permablock with bomb arrows or something? Or do I require some absurd scenario where I have three bomb arrows, tripple fired from point blank range before he has a chance to slash lunge me to death?

I'm guessing the 50% of the time you solo a knight, is also about how often you run into a newbie knight who hasn't learned how to block. Yeah, as an Archer I kill knights all the time. Knights who don't know how to use block. ALL THE TIME. Playing an Archer is not rocket science. If you can reliably land the vast majority of your shots, there's no amount of practice thats going to suddenly make them break shields, and most certainly not going to make four bomb ammo dispensers more destructive or viable than four keg dispensers in TTH.

Also, I REGULARLY kill archers as a builder. It's SUPER EASY to bash them to death if you can get even remotely close to them. Are they bad archers? I have no idea, because you have to be in point blank to be a "good" archer anyways, don't you?? Builders don't have to "wall themselves in". They can use these magical things called doors that only open for them, and archers can only get through if they use special ammo. I've one-way walled myself in.

 

Frankly... It's going to be easier to play as knights.. Knights are hack and slash, it's not hard. just press button watch slash.

There is a lot more tricks for archers, but frankly, it isn't inbalanced. Archers can break shields... at 5 blocks. so Legalos shot at 5 blocks.... if they try to slash you just shoot them. There shouldn't be a way for a knight to kill you, if you play it well. You can also run much faster if you mess up, and try again. But I get annoyed because a lot of archers run straight at a knight, doesn't bother to shoot them, get 1 hkoed and then starts to cry 'NOT BALANCED'.... It's pretty goddamn balanced.

 

A knight advances on your position, so you charge up a triple shot. You release it at >5 blocks and do 2 hearts of damage if they have their shield up, three hearts if not. A knight has 4 hearts of health.
The knight then retaliates by slashing you. You're dead.

 

Yall forgetting the fact you can plug knights with a single charge arrow for unshielding, and you can grapple away or plug a bomb in the air stopping it or shooting it backwards, and if they shield you can plug them with a legolas shot for giving you the time, and cancel if they decide to try their chances again, and use a single charge.

Alongside of that an archer can also plug every single bomb bolt that flies towards your base if hes so inclined. Joys of projectiles canceling each other.

 

Hey, yeah @Aeynia! What're you doing with a bow and arrow, anyway? You're supposed to be in the back casting those namby-pamby healing spells!

 

I wish I could charge an arrow and grapple at the same time, but alas, grapple and cancel arrow are both right click :P

Mage class plz

 

Show me you shooting arrows out of midair like it's the easiest thing ever (especially for the average player LOL) and that might actually be an argument. Then factor in lag, charge time, reaction time (Good luck knocking out a straight flying arrow going 80 MPH without being directly in the line of sight) and you've got an impossible order.

>"Archer don't fight at close range, run away!"
>"Archer why are you fighting at a distance when they can block everything you shoot?"
>

 

Do you play archer? I hope not.
The time honored tactic for taking down knights is legolas shot them, retreat 8-12 blocks, then legolas shot them. If they get in too close before you have charged your shot, stun them, then retreat.
Repeat.

(obviously it's a little more complicated than this, but this is the basic principle.)


@Geti, Whats your opinion on archer?

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Just saying, when I play archer, my main threat is not knights, but other archers.​