Saws

Saws do two things:

1. Accelerate wood collection.

The problem is that they accelerate wood collection too much, allowing single builders to spam massive amounts of doors or blocks everywhere. Even aside from this there is really no niche for saws as builders are and should be able to collect sufficient quantities of wood without the use of an item. If you want builders to be able to collect wood ridiculously quickly, just let them mine it super fast. Needing a saw requires tedious setup that doesn't add any interesting decisions to the game.

2. Provide a damaging trap element.

Again, saws are far too good at what they do. For several patches saws have been a major point of contention in balance discussion as it was silly how you could plop them everywhere and enemies/allies would instantly gib if they so much as dipped a toe in. This is still the case. But like in its capacity to accelerate resource collection, saws are harmfully redundant regardless of its power. We already have spikes, which are completely eclipsed by the instant kill afforded by saws.

Saws do nothing positive for the game, I recommend they be reworked or removed.

 

I really don't think they should be removed, but thing do need to change.

If saws don't already do this, I would say they should give decreased resources, just as the drill does with stone.

As for their killing elements, I think saws that a team owns should not kill them, only enemies. I really don't like how 1. They can kill teammates and 2. Turn off after wards. It just is a pain. In most cases, they turn off and are impossible to turn back on. If a saw changes color if a enemy captures it, why not actually make that mean something rather than the only thing changing be the color.

 

imho the problem is not saws letting you get wood fast (you do need this wood for some stuff) but the fact that wood virtually never runs out which allows infinite stall

tree corruption - discuss

 

Builders may be nerfed relative to classic but I'd still argue they are just as strong as knights are currently, if not stronger. Though comparing the two is problematic as they play such different roles.

No, I definitely think dedicated door spam is a problem. Even if you don't think it's an actual balance problem it's stupid gameplay that shouldn't be in the game.

However finite wood is a good idea, though I don't know how you would implement it in the face of our current wood tree system.

 

You could decrease the speed at which trees grow. You could also limit the amount of logs that a single seed can can grow into and then drop from a tree. After X amount of logs, the seed breaks.

 

I prefer the idea of Saws giving less wood. It's silly that I can chop a tree down and get 700 wood instantly.

 

I absolutely agree, two trees gives me enough resources to build a gigantic wooden castle or a door wall to the heavens. If a tree gave 250 wood per saw at max growth, that'd be PLENTY. 700 is way too much, so nerf that to hell. I'm a legendary builder and it's staggering what saws allow me to do with wood structures, and ridiculously overpowered.

I miss how you would start gaining wood by chopping by hand in classic, while your first 6ish strikes are just to knock the tree over in KAG current then it turns into wood blocks that you can begin chopping. Ridiculous, why does it take so long? Make it take two hits from a pickaxe, reduce saw wood gain to around 50% and make chopping by hand give 25% more wood than it currently does to encourage hand-chopping.

 

Saws being removed = no.
Saws giving less wood = yes.

It is kinda insane just how much wood you get from a saw, it makes sense a saw could cut it better than by hand but with the existence of easy vertical tree farming it is way too easy to get a lot of wood in a normal game...

It is hard to decide about saw traps though...it is very strange to me how I practically gravitate right into saws...I think the reason it always feels that way to me is how very instant the death is when touching a saw, so maybe instead of insta-death they should just inflict very fast damage, giving a player a slim chance of survival.
But I will say, in the defense of saw traps, they are almost needed these days because of the lack of the old trap bridges and the existence of trap blocks. Because an enemy can go inside anywhere with trapblocks and your team cannot; spike traps are not very effective anymore and are easy to blow up along with the stone walls, and an enemy can easily tunnel out while using the trap blocks like their own team's doors...Thus a high damage saw inside the trap prevents your defenses being used massively against you...instead of slower acting spikes.

Maybe simply make saws cost their standard 15o wood + 30 stone. Or make them cost 150 wood + 10 gold? They do have a stone/metal blade and some sorta machine inside...so they should require some other materials to make.

 

fire arrows till they run out of wood

because you know, we would have tree corruption

 

Builders got it hard enough.The saw is perfect.Dont take their ability to earn wood fast.

 

Humm... perhaps replace the saw with a building? A Sawmill? It will completely remove the ability of using it as a trap component, thus making spikes useful once more, and the sawmill could be tweaked to give wood planks only after inserting a certain amount of logs (5-7) or it would give wooden planks after x amount of time.

This way it would be a bit more difficult to harvest wood and might take a bit longer, thus ensuring that you need a fair amount of time before you can turn logs into planks and prepare building materials beforehand. Time which the opposing team could spend breaking through your defenses and (hopefully) eliminating a stalemate.

It's just a theory, but I think making it longer to gather wooden planks could open up windows of opportunity for the opposing team. It won't be as exact as making wood a finite resource but it might be worth testing me thinks.

 

I think thas not good.Saws should be a part of a trap

 

Tree corruption sounds like something that'd just cause confusion.

I'd rather have it possible to burn or destroy trees so that they don't grow back. This way the other team can halt the enemy resources.

 

all my lols. builder is the least hard class to play on a decent level. you just spam blocks vertically and make shops.
such skill. much talent. wow

tree burning sounds reasonable actually, might actually force people to step up their play during early game so they dont lose long-term. tree corruption was a joke obviously.

 

No not in that way.Its hard to collect the wood and the stone.One Time the stone in your base is gone, and you have to search for new stone, and thats pretty hard if 10 enemy knights stick on your ass.

 

The saw on/off function needs fixing. Doesn't work half the time. Dunno if it's wonky collision detection or whatever, but holding E doesn't always bring up the toggle.

 

Wood and trees do not need nerfed in any way, if they are becoming a big part of saving the enemy team then instead of complaining about the team defending themselves do something about their wood production.
First of all fire arrows destroy much everything non-stone, in-fact they destroy an entire basic tree farm that isn't made of stone, they burn the saw, wood holding things up, and the tree. Plus can burn any spammed wood doors.
Second, trees do slowly run out during a game, they do not grow on stone nor bedrock from what I can tell, use this to your advantage along with stealing enemy saplings, so yes saplings can be destroyed.
Third, yes if you can bomb jump then you can steal sapling, although I hate needing to list bombjumping as a way to fight wood farms(as I find it too useful and easy) if you have the skills to do it you have the skills to kill trees.

But more back on topic of saws, I will repeat 150 wood + 30 stone, or 150 wood + 10 gold.

 

When I see door spam they generally checkerboard the doors so you can't burn more than one door at a time. Plus in TTH fire arrows are not available every game.

Tree farms are generally behind the enemy's base so if you are that far into their territory you might as well just win the game. As I said it's not as much of a problem for me because I can bomb jump but the vast majority of knights cannot and even if you can, door spam is still dumb.

 

Thats a true thing, in
most of the game there are no fire arrows
and door spam just looks ugly.