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[947] Bomb Arrows are Ridiculous

Discussion in 'Archer' started by Da_Truth, Nov 24, 2013.

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  1. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    This is what we've been talking about, or at least many of us were. Taking a weak class and giving it a super cheap move to make up for that weakness is not game balance. The archer lacks in the area of sound fundamentals.

    Lets take a little example to outline my point. For the sake of balance discussion take all the classes as they are with no items factored in. The builder can sap walls and attack really badly. The knight can hack people to ribbons, but is thwarted by decent walls. The archer can swing around like a chimp, but not even attack. Even if you go ahead and give the archer basic arrows for sake of this discussion, he excels at nothing useful, except maybe in some rare circumstances like handing off a flag.

    TL;DR
    Lets not worry about how the items affect balance until we actually have balance to worry about.
     
  2. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    @hierbo, you cannot judge balance in KAG if archers don't have items. I have said it many times before, and I'm not the only one, Archers are a support/utility class. Their gameplay revolves around item usage: stunning enemies with water arrows from a distance, creating strategic openings to let their teammates through a tower, burning buildings, and when all else fails, just shooting people when their guards are down to get more money and buy more items. It takes a lot of skill as an archer to go around and really kill people and have a good K/D, which most people can't do. KAG is actually pretty well balanced between the classes in CTF right now, but TTH is severely broken, as everyone gets every item by just respawning. No skill required. Also, say one good knight bomb-jumps using the one bomb he was given when he respawned, and lands on top of the enemy base. If that knight sits up there and kills every knight the other team throws at him, he gets more bombs and can slowly break away at the enemy base because he keeps getting fed bombs. The knight only seems unbalanced because the enemy keeps giving him bombs, which caused them to lose the game. That is why TTH is broken. This bomb arrow spam issue really only happens in TTH, because in CTF, it's just too damn expensive.
     
  3. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    The thing is auburn, i dont think people want to have archer a support class
     
    epenow likes this.
  4. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Lets make archer a tank. Give him a melee weapon. Give him 4 hearts. Let him have a shield. Take away his grapple because that would be OP. Take away the ranged weapon because now he has a melee weapon and a shield.

    Oh hes a knight now.

    The whole point of what my overly sarcastic comment is that whether the community likes the archer being support or not, the class will stay as support. Imagine all of the flags that wouldn't have been captured, buildings burned down, or knights killed without a archer firing at them and backing you up.
     
  5. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    I'm afraid I have to completely disagree. All of the items in the game rely on certain conditions being met for you to get them. Until those conditions are met, you don't get them. If I like playing archer, am I to accept that my class simply has a distinct disadvantage until I can acquire such items, even when my opponent of a different class also has no items? It seems preposterous on its face that the classes are out of balance until one really gets going and rakes in some items, while the others suffer no such limitation.

    So their gameplay is virtually nonexistent without said items, correct? These items cost coins, which archers are poor at collecting, generally speaking. It is important to consider normal play when considering these things, not @Auburn -tier play. The average player is lucky to get a 0.25 K:D as an archer, yet kills are how he can collect the coins he needs to buy the items that make him worth a crap. The only other valid tactic for the archer to take is to not be an archer until he's collected enough coins to buy the bomb and fire arrows, which is hardly a defensible position to take when defending the archer as a balanced class, so I doubt many would.

    Believe me, I've played against some absolutely stellar archers before, and those badass archers were able to kill me about half the time as a mediocre knight. I just simply fail to see how they are balanced, even if the dubious "support class" argument is invoked, when they are flat broke from lack of kills and can't afford said "support" items.
     
    Rocinante likes this.
  6. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    You're completely missing my point, archer wasn't support in classic, he was ranged offence, that didn't make him a knight did he? NO.

    Archers would be fine as support, except the fact they get credit for NOTHING, making playing them lame unless your skilled. Archer is at least twice as hard as knight to be good at, why? Archers can't fight on there own except when you get close ( triple shot stun ), how ironic being they are the ranged class.
    Another problem with archer is that while they can do wonders for a team, most of the time they will be 1 hit ( not even on purpose some times ) before they can even see the other teams side of the map, losing all they're bomb and fire arrows. If burning a base or destroying shops actually credited archer this wouldn't be such a problem.

    Archer can be support, fine i don't care. But at least let them actually do something

    Mind you all of this rage is coming from someone who plays knight religiously and despises good archers, people need to take a look at the big picture of kag, things need to change.

    /rant
     
    Sir_Walter, Contrary and hierbo like this.
  7. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Archers can't be an offensive class without unbalancing the game. That was where classic was broken. 2 archers could camp in a tower all day and bring down almost every knight. I do agree that archers need some changes, maybe a small damage buff and even more utility, but never should a ranged class be able to always take out a tank in a 2D game where the tank has no hope of dodging the shots.

    Oh, and btw, hierbo, I suck at archer compared to how good I am at knight. I could be considered mediocre at best, and when I play archer I have no trouble getting coins (and no, I don't switch to other classes to get the money).
     
  8. JTG

    JTG Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    114
    Why do people play archer and expect a super k:d when the game is about taking the halls, or capturing the flag, and archer is absolutely fine to overpowered in most of the tdm maps regarding the one place that is about kills?

    Archer is ranged offense, and he does the job, you people who think archers get tons of free kills xd in alpha are sorely mistaken considering he couldn't do any damage and could only just stun shielding knights alone, barring he stomped and shot, or stomped or whatever the fuck.

    Stop playing archer if you expect super awesum k:d lulz in the short amount of time the matches in beta usually last, you will get a positive k:d but you can't get a 200:1 k:d simply because you don't attack fast enough to do so.

    Lets not forget knights are racking up the numbers because they are always fighting other knights endlessly, if there were a shitload of archers i'm sure you'd get PLENTY OF KILLS.

    Because the balance changes you are always requesting are literal cancer to this game, who the fuck wants archers to be able to kill faster when they are ranged in a game thats based on close range fortification puncturing.
     
    Sir_Walter and Auburn like this.
  9. Saigon

    Saigon Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    76
    Am I the only one whom doesn't really care how good the archer is at killing? Give him his own role, and I'll be happy. Right now, as Hierbo said, the archer can only really do something after X amount of time, while the other 2 classes can do something useful from the start. In the item department, I think removing Water Bombs from knight and only allow archers to have Water Arrows could help.. A tiny bit at least.

    Edit: But changing how the archer works straight out the box is the thing though, it seems.
     
  10. ArmaGetItOn

    ArmaGetItOn Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    2
    Fire arrows are an incredible utility in that you can burn entire buildings down with a single arrow. Buckets fortunately can counter that, but that requires vigilance from a player looking out for that kind of thing.

    You conveniently failed to mention water arrows, which are also an amazing utility. Some players here suggest that the archer is a support class, which I agree. You can't kill someone with water arrows, but it allows you to knights in killing players with great ease.

    Kegs are a great siege breaker. If you're besting the enemy on the field but can't get through the defenses, bring a keg and blow those defenses up. That first part is important though - your team needs to have control of the field to get keg close. For the most part, the same could be said of catapults, in that it requires you to take and hold an area for it to be effective.

    Then we come to bomb arrows. Bomb arrows smash through defenses and there is no counter. You don't see them coming like a keg, you don't need complete control of the field, and they obliterate what they hit. Hard work is lost from something you cannot hope to defend against.

    I think the coin issue with archers needs to be solved with a change in how gold is earned. Off the top of my head, I would personally suggest every player earning gold per minute. Coins still drop. Archers earn slightly more than knights. Inflate the prices.

    Edit: Before anyone suggests that with that system, some people would play as archer to earn more gold per minute then change classes, I doubt it would be an issue. I do it already with the current gold system by earning gold as knight then switching to archer to buy bomb arrows.
     
  11. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    I think a simple change to fix the gold issue is to give archers gold for every time a arrow hits a player, whether it does damage or not. I am pretty sure that currently you only get gold for doing damage.

    Also there is a problem with making threads about game balancing. They always turn into a thread about all general changes. It really is not possible to stay on subject, which I guess is OK.
     
  12. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

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  13. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Yes. I primarily play CTF. Bomb arrows are really well balanced in CTF.

    For TTH. I only have limited experience with the gamemode, but I know enough to agree that they are way to often spammed in TTH. I would suggest limiting the spawn time for bomb arrows and/or maybe requiring a longer time to research.
     
  14. Consider this as well - all classes have some method of destroying blocks.

    The knight can use his bombs to destroy small amounts, and a keg to destroy large amounts.
    The archer can use fire arrows to destroy an entire structure if it's wood, or press weaknesses into a stone wall using the bomb arrow.
    The builder can take out key blocks with their hammer/pickaxe, and can purchase the drill easily and take out multiple blocks in a few seconds.

    Thus, each class has two options to assist in taking buildings apart (yes i know the hammer is naturally part of the builder, and I know that the drill isn't class restricted, but only people carrying stone can buy it, and generally that's a builder).
     
  15. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    One of the problems with TTH is that someone could bypass the research completely and buy a scroll with gold before build time even ends. Then a team has all their migrants running bomb ammo shops. That team then proceeds to bomb arrow spam.
     
  16. That's more an issue with maps providing too much gold, if you ask me.
     
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  17. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Maybe removing a bomb arrow and keg scroll wouldn't be out of the question?

    Only allowing for top tier item research would allow for less spam and better games.
     
  18. That would be easily within reach of modding, I think, and would go a long way in assisting with balance in TTH.
     
  19. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    @hierbo

    Think you could put that on one of your game balancing servers? See how it works out.
     
    hierbo likes this.
  20. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    Idea. If were talking about Bomb arrow spam and its unnatural unfairness in TTH.. here's what should be done... deactivate the ability to buy more migrants. That there is the reason why so many shops are spammed.. cause of constant coin farming and migrant buying. That there is a simple and easy solution for all of TTH's balance issues with spam and so forth.
     
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