General Knight Changes

How, exactly?

-Archers need gold to get bomb arrows, which requires kills, or a lot of effort from the tech tree requiring you to get it voted and built, unlike Bombs being a base kit item which Knights are generally guaranteed to get. Fire arrows? Nobody is dumb enough to build entirely out of Wood anymore.
-For special arrows rigging fights see above, you need gold or the tech tree, a lot more effort than the Knight's easily gained Bombs.
-See? You need Knights to defeat other Knights, so my original A/A/B or B/B/A point stands. Knight is a more valuable, powerful class.

Where is the tutorial saying "remember to always have a Knight on your team!" ? There's three class options, and all of those options you're given should be viable. The whole game is not just Knights.

Kegs dealing less damage in water isn't enough, they should go out.

If you're not going to address the other points, don't try and make them seem irrelevant or wrong without explaining why.

 

Fire arrows and bomb arrows can be shielded, Bombs do require kills but Knights are far, far more efficient with basic kit at getting kills than the Archer [especially by simply killing other Knights or hapless Builders] and yes bomb arrows are not equivalent to Kegs.

 

A fix for the money issue is to be remotely competent.
If that isn't your cup of tea, earlier in this thread several people *cough*includingGeti*cough* advised switching to archer when you have money from being a knight.

As to your playing take the halls I have but one piece of advice.
Don't play take the halls.

More than a few rushed forward structures are made of wood.
Also these are quite nice in combat.

Fire arrows and water arrows cost next to nothing, try actually getting money.

The archer being there makes the knights more useful at a rate that justifies not just having another knight.
See? The support class supports the combat class.

Incidently, Ej's comment to you in the Valorize Archers thread was (mostly) him trying to point this out to you.

Where in the tutorial does it explain how slash range is dependent on move speed?
Or how to bomb jump?
I'm *shocked* that your citing the tutorial on anything with a straight face.

Outside of the build phase I have *never* seen more than 3 builders be useful simultaneously.
And those were corner case situations in 32 player matches.

The whole game isn't all knights, but it's certainly mostly knights.

And then lucrative water front property would become innanely durable.
There would be no reasonable ways of destroying buildings there aside from building platforms in front of eneemy towers (while enemy knights continupusly jump on you) or the elusive ballista on a boat (because teamwork is totally a thing that actually happens).

You *might* be able to escort a builder as he ladders you up, but from what I've seen you say about strategy I doubt you would bother.
And if you did do that the ladders would peel off the moment your push loses.momentum, so... that's not going to work well with the delay in getting to the enemy base (water, remember?).

Why does this one even seem like a good idea to you?


You seem to have some weird conceptions of this game that aren't actually grounded in fact, but I'd recommend figuring out what you're talking about before talking about it.

 

>A fix for the money issue is to be remotely competent
Whether you're competent or not is irrelevant, if Knights don't want you to get kills then you can't at all unless you do a lot of tricky grapplestomping shit. You need other Knights on side to get Gold at all, or you need a very dumb Knight.

>switching to archer when you have money from being a knight
Which further supports the notion that Knights are OP, and also beggars the question as to why you'd bother returning to base solely to switch. Are you saying Archer instructions consist of "Step 1: Be a Knight"? Seems pretty ridiculous.

>More than a few rushed forward structures are made of wood
"Rushed forward" structures made of wood will probably not be worth a Fire Arrow anyway because they definitely won't last long.

>Fire arrows and water arrows cost next to nothing, try actually getting money
Fire arrows: Wow, I destroyed a non-existent large building made entirely of wood which nobody was dumb enough to build in the first place! I'll get lots of kills/gold this way!
Water arrows: Wow, I have a stun which is completely useless unless I have a Knight on the ground to back it up! I'll get lots of kills/gold this way!
Getting money: Hey, I'll use my Fire arrows and Water arrows to get kills so I can buy Fire and Water arrows! Wait, I have no Gold to buy them. And I can't get Gold because my Fire and Water arrows aren't really that great. And whether or not they are, I need Gold to buy them in the first place, which I can't achieve with my basic kit. Shiiiiit.

>The archer being there makes the knights more useful at a rate that justifies not just having another knight
>See The support class supports the combat class
Support's an interesting word in video games.
Support is not mutually exclusive to being able to actually be a threat. Take many games like League of Legends' tanky or high damage support champions, Battlefield's well armed machine gun toting Support class or TF2's three support classes, two of which possess some of the most powerful offensive skills ingame like headshots and backstabs, which CAN be used to support but are still threatening when solo.
Anyway, I don't agree with you on the Archer being a "Support" class. It's not said anywhere in the game.
As a matter of fact, checking through the wiki, the class who is designated as Support is actually the Builder. The Archer is classed as "Ranged". I know that's a bit outdated but it was all I could find that actually said at any point about any class being defined as a support.

>Incidently, Ej's comment to you in the Valorize Archers thread was (mostly) him trying to point this out to you
*Incidentally, and no, the Archer is not a support class. The Archer is the Ranged class, hence shooting arrows at range. At the moment, the Archer is only support so far as stunning targets, everything else is left over from what was clearly intended to be a class with attack power [think the backstab and arrows that could actually damage, although both features were admittedly OP] which then got nerfed into the ground and is only useful if other Knights are around, or one extra Archer per Archer on the team.

>Where in the tutorial does it explain how slash range is dependent on move speed?
>Or how to bomb jump?
>I'm *shocked* that your citing the tutorial on anything with a straight face
That's completely irrelevant; I was demonstrating that there is no material in the game ANYWHERE to say that the main focus of the game is designed to be knights. Of course the tutorial doesn't mention bomb jumping or slash/movespeed, just like it doesn't go indepth with Builder architecture or Archer grapplestomp. But if the entire game was centred around Knights purposefully, there would definitely be something said about it in the tutorial, or anywhere else.

>Outside of the build phase I have *never* seen more than 3 builders be useful simultaneously
So rapidly mining out a rock deposit or fortifying a flag quickly or undermining the enemy base isn't useful, ok mate

>The whole game isn't all knights, but it's certainly mostly knights
And it shouldn't be mostly knights if there are three friggin separate classes, what do you not get about that

>And then lucrative water front property would become innanely durable.
>There would be no reasonable ways of destroying buildings there aside from building platforms in front of eneemy towers (while enemy >knights continupusly jump on you) or the elusive ballista on a boat (because teamwork is totally a thing that actually happens).
Have you ever heard of moats? Now think sponges, boats, buckets, tunnels, bridges built by dirt, catapults, ballistae, underminers. There are lots of workarounds that rarely see use. Ingame, when the obstacle is environmental, you should be calling on your builders or playing as builder because that's what they're there for. Also, you can still cook off and throw bombs at the non submerged wall, or you can do the crazy elevator thing

>You *might* be able to escort a builder as he ladders you up, but from what I've seen you say about strategy I doubt you would bother
Dropping ridiculous ad hominem again, just like in that other thread. You have no idea how I play, and it's still irrelevant to the point you kindly mentioned: Yes, you can easily have a Builder ladder you up.

>And if you did do that the ladders would peel off the moment your push loses.momentum, so... that's not going to work well with the delay in getting to the enemy base (water, remember?).
When Knights can surf/slash their way through water, then cook off the bomb and have another go? When Knights can bombjump over to the objective? Anyway you should be using Builders in their intended role of overcoming environmental obstacles.

>Why does this one even seem like a good idea to you
>You seem to have some weird conceptions of this game that aren't actually grounded in fact, but I'd recommend figuring out what you're >talking about before talking about it
Once again, entirely irrelevant stuff here in your post, basically dropping a fallacy with no actual argument behind it.
They are good ideas to me due to the fact the Knight is the most powerful and valuable class in the game, which most of your post only supports. The Knight needs counters to some of his abilities so the other two classes can have more of a look in, because it is a FACT that he is a class with lots of pros and very few cons.

Your muddying of the water is just stopping the Archer from becoming an interesting class with actual gameplay, and leaving the Knight as pretty much the only choice for KDR and having fun.

Sorry for no quote boxes but I think either I'm using the reply function wrong, or else it just refuses to reply.

 

if you didn't already know, early beta archers were remniscient of the archers from classic. they stunned shields, had a knife for 3 heart back stabs, and were just generally hurtful to fight against. guess what tho, it was changed slowly to what it is now with 3-shot, grappling hooks, and support arrows because a majority thought it was completely boring to play archer. this is where it also started to change to a mix of CQC and support.

yes, any class can be OP if played right, but that's because they have various skill levels. have you actually ever played a decent archer that can 1 v 1 an "OP knight" (@Trumbles @epenow). in a game with only 3 classes, I think it would always be a little tricky to balance each class with the others, besides nerfing the knight to hell like you think should happen. not every knight knows how to be OP bomb jumping death tanks unless they actually practice; knight also just happens to be the easier of the 3 to learn how to play with. that's just my baddie 2 cents.

 

I don't think anyone here wants the Archer to go back to the bad old killing machine days but at the moment the gameplay is arguably even more completely boring, which may be evidenced by the fact there are nil kill scenarios for it and far fewer people play it than they do Knight or Builder.

Sure skill is involved, but let's say you're riding a bike and I'm driving a motorcycle and we race. Let's assume we're at a roughly equal level of skill on our respective vehicles. I will win that race.
Now there are definitely ways of which I know an Archer can kill a Knight, but if the Knight is anywhere near the same skill level, that Knight is once again going to repeatedly beat that Archer, because the Knight's kit is still much, much better than the Archer's. Builder suffers from this, as an Archer should be able to handle a Knight hanging around in plain sight, but can't even deal with a Knight standing still planting a Bomb at the base of the wall because he can just bring up his freaking adamantium shield and block EVERYTHING, including the Bomb's explosion.

Implying that because it's tricky to balance 3 classes [which is true] means that we shouldn't try is stupid, and I'd like to know where you got the idea that I wanted to "nerf the Knight to Hell".
>Making the shield hitbox do what it says, increasing skill floor for Knights
>Making the Knight vulnerable to the other two classes when the Knight is pulling out his deathrape Bomb
>making the Knight actually be able to be killed at all in water by the other 2 classes EVER
>Make bombs not be able to be bowled over a perfectly flat surface in which they float
>Make Knights actually take damage if they try to jab or slash down a wooden wall while an Archer's on it, as it should be
=/=
>Removing the Knight's Shield
>Making Knights sink instantly in water
>Limiting doubleslash to only one Heart per slash
>Limiting the Knight to only one Bomb
>Increasing cost of each Bomb to 50 Gold
Can you see the difference? If you can't, the second one is nerfing the Knight to Hell and the first one isn't.
You don't even need to be a bomb jumping death tank as a Knight to be by far the biggest weapon your team has, even without aid. The basic kit just has nil counters from anything but another Knight.
Thank you for your 2 cents but think more next time.

 

Ever since arrow slashing got taken out, things have been pretty balanced. I still take minor issue with things like swim speed and bomb cooking, but I don't think anything drastic like you're suggesting is in order at all.
I'm not going to wheel out the "Archer is support class" argument here since I don't think that's an excuse for archers to be less effective overall. The fact is, a good archer can take on knights pretty well now that the knight cant parry and has to choose between slashing and shielding. Plus I think the burger thing suggested here would buff knights WAAAY more than you think. Every knight would always have a burger and be able to soak up extra damage, making them utterly unkillable to non knights.

I think a reason the knight seems OP is that the scoring only values kills. Due to the nature of the classes, knights tend to get all the kills, even if an archer is the one lining every kill up. I notice that as soon as I get a knight on my team in TDM, my score plummets, because I'm no longer the one dealing killing blows. It's not a hard advantage knights have, but the game needs to value other things than raw killing power in score, it makes knights look waaaay more powerful.

I DO agree though, that the hitboxes for shield need fixing, when my arrows, shot from below, bounce off a gliding knight, something is screwed up.

 

I would disagree with you on the game being balanced still as while a Knight has the capability to wreck entire teams solo, a Builder has less of a chance and the Archer has nearly no chance at all [no terrain destruction bar Bomb Arrows, easily blocked by chucking up a reasonable amount of stone and staying Shielded]. That isn't quite balance.

>The fact is, a good archer can take on knights pretty well now that the knight cant parry and has to choose between slashing and shielding
That's mostly true; however, the jab, and jabspam, is also a huge factor in the Knight getting a kill on an Archer attempting to jump around him or stomp.

Would you say an assists system is in order, or something like that? Because you're right, there really is no reward for Archers except a "nice sense of achievement" :(

 

Every suggestion made has already been made, most by me. You are just copying what I did at this point.

However, you can try to beat my record of 33 suggestions @bobotype if you really want to, if you don't get banned by then.

 

Bobotype, being a longstanding player i can assure you that as of now everything is evened out the way its supposed to be. this game is just knight dependent, knights are the main most important offensive class to play but at the same time their usefulness is amplified a million times by the other 2 classes. builders make walls and shops which knights and archers can both use to buy effective equipment. the archer class is based on protecting the knight class, not REKREKREK CANT BE STOPPED archer like in classic. making the shield hit box 100% accurate would be nice but of course latency will be an issue there. making a knight no be able to block with his bomb out is utter bs and you should feel bad for even suggesting such a bad idea. every other suggestion you have made i don't understand. bottom line is now with the new update of no arrow slashing archers can 1v1 knights pretty easily as long as that archer is a good archer and that knight doesn't have bombs, don't complain about bombs being op because they are not, if you get killed by a bomb then it was a fair kill. i honestly see no reason to continue this thread......

 

It's weird why you guys are still fighting over the Knights being OP... I mean... come on now. D:

That said, I feel as though this thread is no longer relevant, what's more relevant is the builders new spikes since those can stop a knight from doing anything from Shield Glitch Wall Climbing to Bomb Jumping to the tip of a wall and then somehow wall running the rest of the way up, to managing to be fast enough to run over a stone field of spikes without getting nicked even once, to even using traps with those trapblocks on them as a way to camp incoming enemies.. and then slashing their assholes when they pass like some tentacle to an amateur female warrior in a random hentai...

Enough is enough guys... it seems the Devs got their bases covered on how annoying a knight can be at this point. All we gotta complain about at this point is the annoying archers and their unusual knack to fire 3 arrows in a rapid fashion.

Felt like saying this, seemed relevant since everyone here is still complaining about shit D;

 

>knights are the main most important offensive class to play
That's what they are dude at the moment, the most useful class [hence overpowered], but what they should be is equal in usefulness to the other classes; all classes need to be useful on their own as well as in a team. We have 3 classes for a reason, so you can try 3 different playstyles. "Shoot arrows at knights only if another Knight is present" isn't much of a playstyle. I would say Builder has a fair amount of upsides and downsides, Archer has some upsides mostly negated by the downsides, and the Knight has very few downsides.
>the Archer's role is to protect the Knight class
Nope.avi. The Archer should be a lightweight class who can harass and even kill enemy Knights from afar, making approaching Walls problematic, while being easily killed at close quarters. Instead, Archers are currently instructed to be at close quarters if they want kills. If you say the Archer's role is to protect the Knight, where does that leave you if your team has no Knight? Then the entire Archer class is negated. That isn't balance at all.
>not REKREKREK CANT BE STOPPED archer like in classic
But I don't want that and I don't think many other players want that either, but actually being a bigger threat than "oh they have Archers must remember to backpedal and RMB" would be lovely.
> making a knight no be able to block with his bomb out is utter bs and you should feel bad for even suggesting such a bad idea
[citation needed]
>now with the new update of no arrow slashing archers can 1v1 knights pretty easily
Nope, sorry, gotta disagree there. There is nothing "easy" about getting kills as an Archer unless your opponent is a caught short Builder or a Knight who's been playing for an hour and doesn't know he can click RMB. You still have to be up close evading and stomping without getting exploded, stabbed, slashed or juked and you still can't 1v1 at range at all, strange seeing as that was the point of the class.
>don't complain about bombs being op because they are not
Bombs are definitely a good tool for the Builder and help speed up the game, but simply suicide bombing an enemy team's base into oblivion with endless bomb runs is not a tactic that should be rewarded. There's nothing Builders or Archers can do to prevent eventual destruction of their base by endless bomb attrition. You might say: "catch the bomb and throw it back!" But Knights can cook Bombs while remaining Shielded. But bombs floating on the surface of water IS bullshit, because Knights are already the strongest class in water: waterslashing, high health to prevent drowning, ability to do everything including shield while in water, surfing, and the Archer loses the ability to grapple in water and the Builder can't throw up defensive walls to protect himself so the Knight can simply bowl for kills. Bombs are balanced but their delivery method is bullshit.

 

Bobotype knights are not overpowered because they are designed to be this strong for the game. there was only one thing i agreed on and that was the shield hitboxex because its just plain common sense to make that right. overall knights are supposed to be as strong as they are right now in order to make the game fun to play. making the game a rock paper scissors deal is not the way to go.....

 

-Ultimate facepalm-

Bobotype, why would you like my comment, yet go RIGHT BACK TO TALKING ABOUT HOW OP KNIGHTS ARE. DAFAQ DID I SAY...! I feel ignored D;
Also noticed you reposted kedrams post twice in your comment up there... why? :o

Again, builders are a bit more powerful now, thus balancing out the problems of how mobile the other two classes are, as well as bringing down how op some of their abilities are just a few notches. In short, they're as useful as the other classes in many ways... the only things I can see that could be fixed, is the archers ability to legolas the fuck out of you... and that bug where knights can attack while using a keg... o-o

Knights being able to slash out arrows was a bit of an op thing honestly, and was best to be removed... kinda makes being an archer a bit more worth playing as.

Knights being able to skid over water is fine, since they can't go as far (Except in the beta versions... infinite skipping... wish they'd come back D;)

Knights are really useful in this game dammit, they're not so op anymore thanks to this update. (Op in mobility and being unable to do certain moves without being stunned by spikes)

Knights being able to also block off bombs like a pro is a nice idea and should stay since well... it's funny to pong paddle a bomb away, only to make it land behind the enemy in question.. and watch him explode with utter confusion in his face. xD

Suicide Bombing is part of the game, it happens all the damn time. The best knights farm gold off the weak, and then grab a keg... and just rush the enemy along with a few other knights to back em up... this game would be sorta boring without the ability to suicide bomb xD (Fuckin Al Qaeda up in this bitch)

And for your information, suicides are rewarded.. with 72 virgins in the kingdom of heaven... plus a nice victory as your team storms the first wall of the enemies base like when the Titans stormed Trost in Attack on Titan after the Colossal Titan kicked a hole in Wall Rose... owo

Archers are supposed to protect the Knight, it's their job. They're the supports and that's what they were programmed for. If there isnt any knights at all, then you'd get CoD in Archer form. Along with the addition of Attack on Titan... which btw is a great anime and manga series. Have you attempted to fight Trumbles? That man is amazing at close quarter archer combat. Also, archers do support the team with heavy arrow fire from walls... that's not unusual, it happens sometimes. owo

P.S. I've been playing this game for over 2 years. Thanks to this new builder upgrade, the game is a bit more balanced than it was a long time ago. Everyone is a bit more useful, like the knight, and less OP than they used to be. The whole game seems a bit more fair in my opinion, so calm yourself before you wreck yourself.

Trust me, I'm a doctor. :I
If something I said doesn't make sense, please ask me... I kinda typed this out in a semi-rushed way. o-o

 

I feel bad for contributing to this unholy mass of tl;dr text. Can we all agree shield hitboxes need fixing and go home?

 

My biggest problem with suicide bombing, is that, in the case of kegs.. It's impossible to kill the person without in turn making the keg explode as well.

As an archer, trying to stop someone with a keg is a nightmare, as 75% of the time, my arrow seems to hit the keg, when it's nowhere near the keg.

Kegs should only take damage when they're not being actively carried, that way there's some sort of chance to stop the carrier without blowing up the keg prematurely.

 

What about those Spikes? Won't they stop the keggers of doom? Sure, their explosions will break the spikes and maybe the stone under it, but wont that stop em? I can see the slight issue of like.. a massive raid of douchebag keggers rushing in like a mob of mice, but still.. wont the stunning spikes stop em for a bit? Or will they just.. force their way through the spikes till they reach their final destination and die right there. :o