Archer changes general

You're saying "decent Archer", which means the Knight is of lesser skill than "decent", which generally means "bad" or "shit". Got anything else to point out?

 

no i said decent archer because a shit archer couldn't win against a knight. I have seen many *pro* knights get killed by a decent archer.

ye archers are support.

 

No they aren't, here you go again.

You've seen pro knights get killed by decent Archers? Of course it's POSSIBLE, like say that pro Knight forgot to press RMB that day, or maybe a cat stepped on his mouse and made him drop RMB, or maybe he was too busy taunting with Q to press RMB. Doesn't mean it's the prevailing situation at all.

 

• On most servers, archers cannot damage themselves or teammates with arrows. They can, however, damage enemy structures or siege equipment with fire and bomb arrows. Archers can also stun enemies using water arrows.

• As such, they aren't suited for assault all by themselves as it's to expensive to do effectively, they can however provide great support in dealing with enemies.

• Arrows can collide with each other - This can be used to protect your knights, by shooting the arrows out of the air.However, a knight's slash can also break arrows in mid-air. (applies to all arrows)

• While it may not seem readily obvious, archers can be very deadly underground in the company of knights and builders, supplying suppressing fire to allow your team to advance.

all from the wiki

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 22, 2014 ---

/thread

 

grapple allows you to:
-get to any open space on the map
-outspeed any other class
-outspeed any projectile in the game
-get to any potential archer nest
-move flags through walls

i'm sorry but if you are competent enough to not fuck up, you can pretty much outmaneuver anyone and anything. you can kite infinitely, you can do anything you want as long as you don't miss grapples

yeah saying that grapple isn't able to do anything because you might turn out to be awful enough to walk into 5 knights or a trap is kind of a manipulation. or just a proof of your inability


also im done here

 

i can't tell if you're normally a shitter or actually attempting here, but the archer has been buffed hardcore ever since it's first days in KAG Beta. original archers had stats the same as mainly classic archers, ie long range stunning and heart damage. they were ranged and could get /decent/ kills, but they were slow due to the increase in general fighting and game speed compared to classic. in return, almost no one in the testing section wanted this slow moving, long range archer because it was basically "classic tower camp V2, electric getiloo." in return, they were given a legolas shot (which was pretty debated), and then a knife (removed because shitters), and that continued onto special ammo and grappling hooks (another huge debate in the sections). you aren't a tester, so please stop acting like you know how the archer has faced change in all of the updates and build versions into how the archer is now.

their health was lowered from 3 to 2 in an attempt to balance archers, as they were now a highly agile, special weapon equipped ninja that could legolas in and out in battle. i dunno your name in-game, but if you haven't been / seen games where wooden buildings become the norm / active defense or archers + knight teams take on even larger teams, then i can't say your arguments are 100% valid. knights aren't all the LMB + A / D class that you seem to keep referring to them, and not every knight has bombs just for "lol spamming at archers".

(i also can't believe you're attempting to use the wiki to prove your points, considering how often that's even looked at or referred to -- Archer : This page was last modified on 3 December 2013, at 22:50)

 

@bobotype
I've received ZERO warnings for my very on topic posts as everyone seems to agree with me, in one way or the other. You are sitting here telling people who are much more experienced than you in the game that they are wrong because you feel differently. Archers are a support class. I know this because I was there with the devs and other testers when it was fucking decided, and tested when it was implemented. I'm not the one in need any fucking citation, you are. If you pull your head out of your ass and take into consideration that most of the people here actually fucking know what they are talking about, well, maybe not all but some. Don't you realize that all you've done is talk in circles, While passive aggressively telling everyone trying to lead you to the right path that they are retarded?

TL;DR
> Entire fucking Kag community
> "Archer is support"
> You
> "No, its not"
> Dev
> "Archer is support"
> You
> "No, its not"

@Crabmaster that may be the case but i felt that its vital to let people who are clearly either trolling or being a huge fucking faggot (in this case both) know as much. My posts clearly state my reactions to this fucking shit and as such are on topic. Whats more detrimental to this thread is the fact that this guy is constantly shitting out of his mouth hole. He's negating the sometimes valid opinions of some of the other archer shitters by riddling the once tolerable thread with utter nonsense. I don't understand how I seem to be one of the only people who can see how this thread has become fucking shit. This is what causes threads like this to be closed, not perfectly selected gifs/imgs but people talking in circles. You cant honestly sit there and tell me that this conversation is helping the obvious archer problems.

 

>All these walls of text

You guys are crazy or we really need a modded server to constantly test balance changes.

The best and only way to balance the game is to play it.

Also it's VERY naive if someone thinks it's possible to fix the balance with a single patch. One little change can pop up many other problems that wasn't obvious to you. And someone suggests like 50 changes at once and half of them not little at all.

 

It's really hard to present my ideas in the face of some very concentrated opposition from about 10 people [not the entire KAG community Arcrave, read earlier posts in the thread], but I'm doing my best because KAG is a game I really like, OK? Sorry about 80 separate edits but this is 5 replies in one and my browser inexplicably only lets me edit text.

While those are strengths, your original point was that skilled Grapplestomping fixes ALL the Archer's problems, which is untrue, which I presented reasons against, and which you blithely ignored, here they are again: Enclosed rooms of wood/stone, small spaces, Knights who can dodge and jab, grapple-less Water.
Kiting? U srs? So you're facing the mouse one way to grapple escape, while charging a Trishot to hopefully do damage IN THE OTHER DIRECTION? Correct me if I'm wrong, pro Archers, but pretty sure that isn't physically possible. If it is, I apologise, I'm sure 2 damage per hit is a lot against an incoming Knight.

Spoiler

Sorry but that quote is just confusing. Fire arrows are the only unique thing to the Archer, the other two are Knight items stuck on an Arrow. They clearly weren't designed to be Support items, otherwise they would have to have been Support items on Knight in the first place, and Bombs are not a support item.

Lovely quote, used without any introspection into it at all. If you can say that the name "Archer" means nothing, I can say that "Support" means a class that can take on any other class. Do you want to use that quote? It nullifies "Support class" as an argument against the Archer having more ability. Also that description is nothing compared to how Archers play "support" now, just with less chance to kill.

I'm not looking for a beef with anyone, especially the wonderful people who made this game. That said, the suggestions/Ideas forum is here for community input; if the devs thought themselves infallible and having thought up all the best possible ideas for the game, I don't think this forum would even exist.
I already dropped Arrows piercing Shields as an idea because Geti flat out said he wouldn't add it.

Spoiler

So you said what I said: Archer was going in a damage direction, then got nerfed cause OP. Either way, all that shows is that Archer was originally designed to be a solo play ranged attack/defence class, and has wound up as it is now by tacked-on compensations for its obvious post nerfing weaknesses.

Most of that information is very available without even having played through it, that sort of elitist attitude is a shame in an upstanding member of the community such as yourself. How do these games help the effectiveness of your everyday Archer in an everyday game? Also, remember that there are also Fire Arrow counter options like Buckets specifically designed for only stopping Fire Arrows in those situations, which are not infallible, but definitely exist.

No they aren't but by simply doing that, I'm saying, they can negate the Archer's usefulness.

Wait where did I say this? I see that as a problem, and also as a problem that as Geti said Bombs can simply be used to "erode" a Builder's defences solo, without having to worry about being hit by the Archer supposedly guarding those defences.

Because even if it is outdated, it shows that the Archer isn't/wasn't designed to be the "Support" class.

Okay then Arcrave, KAG expert, shining example of community spirit and quality posts, EXPLAIN TO ME how the Archer is the Support. Come on, use FACTS. Use LOGIC. Don't just say "I'VE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU THEREFORE YOU ARE WRONG FUCK SHIT SHITHOLE POO ASS SHIT TROLL (MEMES) FUCK SHIT FUCK RETARD SHITTING OUT YOUR MOUTH HOLE." Explain yourself, and DISCUSS.
These are my REASONS why the Archer is not the Support, and the Builder is the Support, and thus the Archer should not be forced into unrewarding gameplay.

Spoiler

Builder support capabilities:
>Has a teleport to move allies around the map
>Can construct heavy vehicle weapons to either attack or defend, or launch allies, requiring allied support to operate.
>Can assist other Builders by giving them supplies
>Can build Shops to replenish teammates' ammunition, give them more weapons or change their class
>Can build Shops to replenish teammates' health
>Can build respawns for team-mates closer to the front line
>Can sap enemy structures to allow team-mates to enter and kill the enemy/capture objective
>Can build lots of vehicles, obviously not designed for his own use, for allies to move around the map
>Weapons [Construction equipment] are clearly tools of his support trade which have a clearly improvised secondary combat role
>Listed as "Support" class on the wiki
>Team-mates can likely not function in many places without his assistance, a.k.a. Support.

Archer support capabilities:
>Can briefly stun shielded enemy Knights from afar if they can be hit, giving ally Knights a brief window to attack with their doubleslash if it is already charged or to Jab if they are in range
>Can be an added threat to enemy Knights as pressure support for own Knights [just like any other class]
>Has a Water Arrow, which the Knight has an equivalent to, for stunning briefly

The Archer problems aren't going to be helped at all if nobody discusses them. You're not helping this thread go anywhere: Muddying the waters, swearing a lot, posting pictures of Kermit's froghole () and generally not discussing anything. Sounds toxic to me, definitely not "on topic" as you claim.
If you can't refute this without insults/seniority/swearing/lack of facts you prove that you have nothing to contribute.

 

Go with a knight and you're unstoppable. You stun the enemy if they get hit, and they're instantly rekt.

Somewhat still a support class.

 

Use.
These.
Damn.
Spoilers.


Thanks.

 

bobo you will never give up will ya.

 

It isn't some sort of contest, I'm using the forums for what they're for buddy.

 

>Implying I'm an upstanding member

I'm referring to how most of the major changes and testing done with archers were done in private testing (no available changelogs); it took a while for >public< testing to actually happen. Archers were turned into the CQC based, agile class because a lot of play testing revealed that not a lot of people found it fun to sit on a tower and just shoot at passing players every day with their basic arrows; these closer range compensations were made with the mindset to support other knights in the field and deny areas. If there were still archers running around with long-range stuns, legolas, AND grapple, I'd probably just quit the game for a while.

Buckets aren't always available nor are stone, which means fire arrows are still viable in warfare (it's also a nice 2 heart hit that light people on fire). Not sure if you know this, but archers used to be able to acquire a throwable fire satchel that could be carried and tossed like a short-range bomb. Don't exactly remember why it was removed, but it was probably the introduction of fire arrows that changed it.

On the wiki point, I'm pretty sure that's community run. It's just easier to explain to a new player that archer is ranged (arrows, they can still kill at range), other than saying their main set is support.

 

Which is the "support" mentality encouraged now, sit in a tower and arrowspam at Knights fighting other Knights. And now, you don't get the kills from it! Other than that your only other recommended play style is grapple stomping. Which requires you to be very good, and is ridiculously counterintuitive to the idea of an Archer.

And I don't want that bro and wouldn't ask for it, I just want Archers' basic kit to be as viable as that of the Knight and Builder, not as unbalanced as the fabled bad old days. Judging by the earlier pages of this thread it doesn't seem like anyone else wants old Archer back, but more a balance between their old OP/encouraging-unskilled-play form and their current weak-can't-do-much-if-not-pro form.

Well now all we have are Fire Arrows and those can be shielded, which means it's not going to be useful for much considering its cost anti-player wise; Knights can simply block it, and you might as well save your cash if you're hunting Archers/Builders and use regular Arrows. I'm sure they would be very viable on all-wood maps, but that isn't your average server and doesn't affect the usefulness of your average Archer.

So why isn't the class a "ranged" class in gameplay rather than a "support" class if it's intuitive that Archer=kill at range? Anyway, their main set isn't support. The arguably "support" special arrow is just a Knight weapon stuck to an Arrow, the other two are destructive, and basic Arrows have no indication on them of any "Support" utilization, while their stun is only brief. The Grapple is obviously not designed for anything Support-related either, it's for your own mobility.
SUGGESTIONS RECAP

Spoiler

>Vulnerabilities in the Shield hitbox for Knights so Archers can shoot the legs or the head as necessary and the Knight can angle to protect as necessary OR more Shield downtime; down in water, down when cooking bombs, down when carrying items, down when walljumping, down for 1 second longer after jabbing or slashing.
>Lockpick that can open doors for Archer, comes in stacks, holds enemy Door open for team-mates until an enemy passes through it again.

 

Interesting that you would say that after I just posted "the forums aren't a competition", and when quoting you must have also missed the all caps spoiler for SUGGESTIONS RECAP. As it is, "we win, you lose" is the best argument I've ever heard, Auburn. Should they change your name to SICK auBURN? ;^)

No, you were trying to use a Shakespeare quote ( ? ) to imply that just because the class is called "Archer" doesn't mean it involves killing people from afar with arrows. I turned that on you, telling you that if you could say that then you could also say that just because some people call a class "Support" doesn't mean that it has to deal no 1v1 damage. I completely got your point, and it was a bad one.

what I mean is that other people do not necessarily consider the Archer to be the "Support" class, or deserving of being relegated to such a shitty gameplay position, if you look back and read the posts. Pretty sure you directed me here to read this thread, why don't you try it?

Except with Water Bombs from what I hear you have to direct hit now. As for Bomb/Fire Arrows, the topic wasn't even their power, it was whether or not they're an item which defines Archer as Support, which they aren't, unless you count the Knight as a Support class too with their Bombs and Water Bombs.

Now instead of discussing how weak Archer is when we all know perfectly well it is not the strongest or most useful or most played class, can we please discuss the pros and cons of ideas to improve it to make it more fun/rewarding/useful? Here is another Suggestions Recap for Auburn seeing as he missed the last one.

SUGGESTIONS RECAP

Spoiler

>Vulnerabilities in the Shield hitbox for Knights so Archers can shoot the legs or the head as necessary and the Knight can angle to protect as necessary OR more Shield downtime; down in water, down when cooking bombs, down when carrying items, down when walljumping, down for 1 second longer after jabbing or slashing.
>Lockpick that can open doors for Archer, comes in stacks, holds enemy Door open for team-mates until an enemy passes through it again.