General Knight Changes

Perfect example of a person with nothing to say using ad hominem to put somebody else down. You're not being constructive, just rude.

You aren't the whole community, so why should I care if you don't want it to be discussed? I only care about the pros and cons you bring to the table about the ideas. How about you quit the forums if you aren't prepared to be constructive?

As long as the Knights aren't of comparable skill to the Archer, because otherwise an Archer has no chance either from defences or on the ground of killing that Knight. Arrow slashing changes very little in terms of balance when the Knight still has an Arrow-/Bomb-impenetrable Shield.

This isn't what I'm asking, but here's what a laundry list of BIG changes would look like:
>Remove Shield
>Make Knights have 3 HP
>Remove wallrunning for Knights
>Increase cost of individual Bombs to that of the Bomb Arrow
>Make Keg carrying slow Knight by 200%
>Make Knights instantly drown in water
Now there's a list of BIG changes

Because why? Being skilled at Archer makes the Archer be a better class than the Knight? Skill doesn't change the kit and abilities available to a class.

Um 20 things where sorry?

Ironically you aren't the first person to suggest that. Also, I fucking read the whole thing. That applies to posting THREADS not COMMENTS.

Yes please. Okay, how about Knights drop Shield while Jabbing and carrying anything-- such as Keg, Boulder, Burger, Crate etc; as well as Shield drop when cooking/holding a Bomb. Seems fair to me, isn't a HUGE change but increases windows of opportunity for Knight to get hit. If the Knight wants to, for instance, cook and lob a Bomb into a Door while an Archer helplessly watches, he's going to have to tank some damage.

 

@bobotype I understand that there IS a steeper skill curve for archer, a low skilled knight generally does better than a low skilled archer. The issue is, since things even out at higher skill levels, any changes made to balance for low skill need to keep the high skill game balanced.

 

It kinda applies to comments as well. But enough of that.

About the dropping shield thing, I find it kinda fair that they are able to even do such a thing. Best to make the game a tiny bit more one sided than a massive stalemate. It's less enjoyable when you can straight up murder the carrier and then you can just kill him and run past without having to do much.

And besides, you can still break a keg or whatever when someone's holding it anyways. The slash or stab still gets through and damages the thing the guy's holding... except bombs of course. I for one don't like the idea of dropping the shield while priming a bomb. Makes it easier to bomb jump while in the heat of battle.

Without it, not alot of people would be able to even bomb jump, which then turns the game into a slight stalemate... considering the knights in question has to like.. wait for builders to come and build ladders up to the top... only to watch those builders get get instantly murdered by the knights above. :I

 

Alright ladies, once again it's time to cease the hostilities (or carry them over to a nice little PM), and head back to the topic. Be constructive, not destructive.


holy crap that sounded like FBB ;~;

 

True about changes needing to keep skill levels as well as game balance in account, but I would disagree that it evens out at all when both the Archer and Knight or Builder are of equal skill level. Even an excellent CQC Archer could die pretty easily to an equally skilled Knight who knows how to dodge, and no matter your skill level as an Archer you can't take down a Knight at range if he knows you're there and knows how to press RMB. Yet that's meant to be an Archer's specialty, so that's quite counterintuitive.

That's why I was suggesting Lockpicks, too, to assist the Archer in sneaky back-capping if everyone else is fighting an attrition war.

Interesting that you said "slash or stab". On the topic of Archer, if the Knight's anywhere near your walls by the time you manage to shoot it, he's going to KEBAB the walls to death even as one guy. Transporting a Keg to blow out a wall should be a team effort with people protecting the keg carrier, not a solo Rambo mission.

So you shouldn't be vulnerable while priming your super duper bomb jump, which flies you across the map and can kill enemies around you, while you're in combat? Silly.

Yes, that's great feedback; there do need to be more stalemate breakers. Lockpicks could be a solution to this, opening a wad of doors for your team or yourself. Gotta say though, a higher skill ceiling to bomb jumping seems fair, because as PandemicCommander said a low skilled knight generally does better than a low skilled archer anyway.

 

@bobotype Yeah, it IS kinda counter intuitive that archers cant take on knights at a distance 1v1. Being able to support you knights from way back and guarantee your side takes the fight seems to make up for it though. My major beef with this right now is that the game doesn't recognize support score-wise at all. If it did, it think playing ranged support would be a lot more rewarding. As is, knights take all our kills and therefore get all the points. That's not really a game balance thing, but I think it's a way the game really favours knights in a soft way. If the game rewarded good archer play with points more, the skill curve might be easier to climb since new players will get better positive feedback from the game and more easily recognize when they're doing something right. Something like that may actually make a huge difference to new players picking up the game, since when you're new, it's harder to judge the usefulness of your actions.

As for knights taking on CQC archers, I play a lot of TDM to stay sharp. I must say, in 1v1, slight advantage goes to the archer. This goes out the window once the game gets more busy but if i'm fighting in a small game, I'd rather take on knights than archers.

I'm at least curious how lock-picks would work. There could maybe be something to that if implemented right since archer is the only class that cant deal with enemy doors normally. The key is not messing up high level balance, so if lockpicks WERE implemented, they'd need to be an easy to use way to open doors, but far from the BEST way to. As long as a good archer can grapple around, bombing and burning troublesome doors, he shouldn't need lock-picks at all. Lock-picks would need to be a slow way for new archers to deal with doors. I'm not sure how well that would fit in with the pace of gameplay, but it would be neat to see done right at least.

 

It's really easy to kick the ass of one knight, but when 2-3 comes at you? you're screwed, and basically, ... they have overwhelming advantage.


How would you do this for scores/ Support score? I can't even think about it mathematically, try thinking about it code-wise.

 

@Geti makes another set of good points.

You'd be amazed how important slowing enemies can be, getting 2-3 Knights to chase you about on a wild goose chase just to lead them back to their own base is 2-3 Knights not fighting on the frontlines! And if you manage to kill one then that is at least one Knight waiting for respawn with several other Knights having wasted time.

Also I have found Archers are the ideal class for grabbing kegs people have dropped, because grabbing that keg and then grappling away as fast as possible might get you killed but can save your base from being broken into very very effectively!

 

No, it's very annoying for archers because they don't get much coins. The time it takes for an knight to deal four hearts of damage, an archer might've dealt one, if' it's lucky.

 

well the reason for this is that archers can only hit one target at a time, knights can actually hit multiple targets at once which means they get more money. overall archers are very good for dealing with a singular enemy. in a 1v1 situation with no bombs an archer would absolutely demolish a knight. and dont even get me started on 2block tall tunnels and plots of land that you can circle around, overall archers dominate on the 1v1 field but when there's 2 enemies its extremely hard for the archer to do anything. that there is why knights excel so much in ctf and tth. they go up against mass enemies and the really good knights know how to time slashes and bombs consecutively to actually take on 4 or 5 knights. archers cant do that because they dont have an aoe base attack or an easily acquirable item aoe.

 

You can't sneak when it is 21+ ppl on a server. You will get slaughtered instantly. Though if everyone are spawned at some ballista and no one are spawned at regular spawn then you are able to use a drill, boulder, mines etc.

Btw, drills are a bit op when they insta-kills archers.

And when a builder starts to use their pickaxe at you they sometimes deals 2 dmg in 1 sec. They are like jumping around and somehow dealing dmg faster then normally.

 

builder can easily combo but knight can simply break out and archer shouldnt even get hit



#dontgethit

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 26, 2014, Original Post Date: Apr 26, 2014 ---

 

That's actually true, but that's because of another variable: Terrain. Every TDM map I've played has like a Quake 2D sort of vibe, with trampolines everywhere, floating islands, etc., which means the Knight is spending a lot more time midair, time where an opportunistic Archer can actually get a shot in from beneath, or sneak around behind them from below the floating islands. But CTF/TTH the most you get in that respect is "Mountain with a tunnel through it". So Knights are safe Shielded in basically 2 and a half directions. Archers are further stymied there because even if the Knight is directly below them, in the spot where the hitbox of the Shield finally allows hits, they can't hit that Knight because they can't shoot directly down when they're sitting atop a Wall. It's bloody madness.

Spoiler

But if you want a Drill or Boulder as an Archer, you've got to change to Builder, find Stone that other Builders haven't already taken for the base, buy it and switch back to Archer. And mines don't help the Archer bypass terrain.

Even when the Archer is great, CQC is not an infallible method of killing Knights. I'm pretty sure that with each of the maybe 5 Archers who bothered to CQC me in my 60 hours of play, I was able to dodge them, although I'm pretty sure I died a few times too. No, on flat terrain Archers are quickly put out by jabbing, I've done it back in my atrocious jabspamming days of which I am now ashamed. Their natural CQC habitat is using a sheer wall to jump off. And "CQC" is honestly a misleading title, because where it's useless the most is anywhere with a low ceiling. Maybe you're right, maybe I've never met a top tier Archer in combat, but I definitely earnestly tried to kill the ones I did meet [by jabbing like a little shit], and 60% of the time it worked every time. Personal experience story end.

Builders get Gold for making Workshops, that's a thing that causes their team to win the game. There's no reason to hate it. Unless you're lucky enough to hit them in the 2.5sec charging/slashing window, you're only stunning them for your Knight, who then nets the kill instantly during their Doubleslash, so they're netting the coin, not you. Or is there a mechanic where hitting Shields nets coin, or something?

Absolutely sensible that you are or should be vulnerable while bomb jumping.

Thank you based Geti, because solo durka durka warriors are annoying as aids to competent Builders.

Geti, 2 things, correct me if I'm wrong but can't Bomb Arrows and Fire Arrows be Shielded against? Any Knight can simply run towards whatever you're trying to defend as Archer while holding RMB, getting sheer up against the Wall, and dropping a Bomb or hacking at it if wooden [You can't shoot directly down at him if you're standing on the wall, and Grappling to reach him invites you to get murdered unless you're quite high up], and once he's done that he can run on to the objective or retreat. You haven't stalled him effectively, it's not even likely you made him pause.

Hopefully with Geti's planned change that'll happen more often <3

 

The main problem is that, you can't play specifically as archer. I play archer, I'm halfway decent sometimes. But In games, there a times where it's impossible to get coins as an archer. which is what I think bobotype is very annoyed at. This all solved by switching to knight or builder, but I think he wants archer to have a larger role inside the game, like you can always switch to archer and do something.

 

Yeah man kinda, specifically what needs a fix is the Archer's basic kit needs to be useful against Knights. Obviously it isn't all about what just I want, though, there are other people who I've talked to in games that do agree [although sometimes no further than "KNIGHT OP", likely sarcastic, but there are people who are serious about it too]
A problem for Archer is yeah, they bring nothing indispensable to a game.

Spoiler

You have to have Knights, or you have nothing to consistently destroy stuff and counter enemy Knights. You have to have Builders, otherwise you can't defend, team can't get spec ammo and tricky environmental obstacles can't be surmounted. Meanwhile in Archer land, you're picked to fulfil niche roles like Knight versus Knight combat. You aren't all helping team-mates, you're supposed to be a mix of CQC attacking and supposed "support", plus "mobility", plus "utility", which never really seem to form a whole thing that your class is formed around, because Arrows, just regular Arrows, aren't the gameplay focus of your class.
And while Builders counter Builders and Knights counter Knights and Archers counter Archers, Builders and Knights also counter Archers pretty damn easily; Builders chuck up their customary Stone defences with a simple wall, Knights Shield. There are workarounds in that for the Archer, but it needs SO MUCH EFFORT that you might as well be playing Builder or Knight. That's a sucky situation.

A hypothetical here for the Archer being less useful, don't read if you believe me, but yeah.
So you want to be useful as Archer in the field of battle? Ok, go CQC. So then you net a bunch of CQC kills as a PERFECT PRO WOMBO COMBO Archer, assuming it's in a tree infested area or right angled wall and not a flat space or very dark or in an enclosed area. From there, you want to move on to the objective, which is surrounded by a Stone Wall or Wood Wall. Now normally in this situation, as a Builder you could smash through the Wall, and as a Knight you could presumably loot your enemies for Bombs and destroy it or hammer away at the Wood. Seeing as Archer corpses bearing your special ammo of choice are obviously never in the area, you have to travel all the way back to base and get coin for your special Bomb/fire ammo assuming you have enough coin, then travel back to the front line again, in which fucking-around time either the enemy has respawned or not depending on how far away you are. Then you better fucking hope that one Bomb Arrow you had enough coin for is enough for their defences. Meanwhile a Knight could have gone in, with a high chance of scrounging Bombs from the other Knights or if not then having enough money for a lot of Bombs on the return journey, and also able to just flat out jab and slash the defences if they're wooden, or have any destructible Dirt/Gold/rock as a part of their build.

So what you were saying, me being frustrated Archers can't earn coin: Yes, Knights need to take some form of damage over time from just basic Arrows [not drop like flies, just attrition], so that Knight isn't always the best, simplest ingame choice which it currently is, and so that Archers can get cash and be useful. Idea at the moment is that Shields are smaller in their hitbox so Archers can decide to aim for the legs or head even when in front of a Knight, a good Knight being able to block the Arrows intelligently as they come.

 

I agree with Bobotype! Archers need an upgrade of some sort! Knights are 2op!

 

Do you even play the game guys? Archers got buffed as motherfuckers last build.