Repository/Build Server Migrations

oh ffs not spike nerfs the one class not nerfed to shit

 

Either make water arrows more expensive or make water bombs cheaper because in its current state it is much more cost effective to buy water arrows. You get two arrows and they are much more accurate.

Make tramps rotatable like ladders so it would make using the tramp a lot easier. I have no idea how hard this would be to make.

I think the jab hit boxes should be fixed because sometimes my jabs go through people's heads and they don't do damage. I'll also occasionally lose a fight if someone jabs like crazy. I think this one guy got two hearts off when I shouldve had the advantage. I like slash cancelation but I think doing one heart of damage is more fair than mindlessly getting two hearts because you know how to spam click.

And please nerf boulders. I find it ridiculous that they can insta kill you just by barely touching you. I like the idea that they do a lot more damage in a cat a bur I dislike them being used as a cheap insta kill weapon.

 

"like stalemates and archer arrow spam"
"and tunnels being useless"
"and drills being nonexistent"
"and spike drops"
"oh and knights being useless"
"so you know, all those good new things"

"more archers is good"
"there's also uh"
"uh"
"well at least there's more archers woo-hoo"


Just so I'm not being a complete useless fuck, here's some suggested changes.

1. Bring back old wallclimbing height for all classes. Builders are fine, they don't need more buffs.
2. Remove tunnel gold cost. It's terrible. Add a coin cost instead, like 50 coins or something.
3. Either swap the shotgun for legolas, or add a button that switches between the two modes, like spacebar.
4. Make knight shield-gliding not roughly equate to a stone hitting a pond of water at terminal velocity after 1 second of gliding flight. This was seriously the most baffling change to me. Jumping off a tower with a shield is supposed to protect you from fall damage, but now the shield just gives up after a second and goes "Welp, time to turn to a surfboard lol" and you fall down at normal falling speed.
5. Arrow disintegration, by the way, is pretty dumb. Archers doing more damage in CQC than long-range attacks is also dumb. I don't know how you want to fix this but archers should not be up-close-and-personal attackers. People pick archer to play as a sniper, not because they want a better knight.
6. The only thing I like about shotgun is it makes arrow ladders super easy to make for knights. I think that's a good thing.
7. Lower Saw cost to 50 stone and 150 wood. You've nerfed saws hard enough with the reduced wood gain (250 from a tree instead of 600) so make saws more useful again. I also remember hearing you say something about making saws fixed objects. I don't hate it, but I also hate it.

 

"my opinion of what all classes should be and how all mechanics should work is the most important"

 

@Klokinator

at least you weren't there in early testing for shield gliding. you'd float for like 3 seconds and then your shield would get forced down, making you hit the ground at full speed.

 

I think Geti made it pretty obvious that not all things about this build are good. More archers definitely is. I know you are saying "That's it" but archers are one of the three classes, a massive chunk of the game, whereas all the stuff you mentioned, aside from knight (which was a reasonable decrease made unfair by the surge in archers), is minor stuff.

Knights are hardly useless anyway, stop exaggerating. All it is is a new archer mechanic combined with a less dominating knight, meaning that every second knight sees archers as ruling the score boards, making it out to be a situation ten times worse than when knight was the only class that could do anything because towers were totally useless and they just floated over them.

Look at the scores. Knights are still in control. You just aren't used to them not being the whole game yet. I agree archers need some changes, but you are taking this way, way too far. The devs made a good call in nerfing knights, but some people still can't seem to let go of a horrible mess of a build. There's no way the devs can fix this while keeping everything else perfect. It's a case of trial and error.

Archers were few in number before because they generally sucked. Then the knight's power was cut, more of them turned up at the same time as a new mechanic. Archer power increase exponentially in numbers at a much greater rate than knights, so it seems worse than it is.

I think the only way quite a few people will be happy with archers is if knights are back in full force. Archers need some fixes, but a lot of the aspects of the game that have become apparent recently are just things that people need to learn to deal with.

I really think we should look at what needs to be fixed, which Klok did manage in most of his second paragraph, without releasing all this random unjustified hate 'backed up' by a few flaws. Compared to what the game was before the "newer builds" I think we can forgive quite a bit.

 

B-but, that would be a super hilarious glitch XD

Uh, no, wrong. Nearly every change in the last two builds has nerfed knights in just about every way.

Can't climb tall towers anymore.
Knights (and the other classes) lost an additional 2 tiles of wallrunning height as well.
Can't bombjump over a ton of towers, because now there's only two tiles of wiggle room at the top of the map instead of like, the stratosphere.
Bombjumping where archers are near is suicide. Speaking as someone who plays archer master race know, seeing a knight about to bomb jump is a prime target for the ol' shotgun.
Bombjumping will always cost you at least a heart thanks to shield gliding being useless.
Speaking of which, shields are paper now. Unless you're shielding a stab or arrow directly to your front, your shield will be completely ineffective.
Can't use drills.
Tunnels are made of plastic and cost an oil tycoon's fortune.
Kegs get knocked off your back, which was a great feature two builds ago when knights were a power to be reckoned with and archers needed something to take out a kegger from a distance, but now with Arrow Rain and Paper shields it's almost always getting knocked off.

That's just knight nerfs. That's a ton of knight nerfs too. Now look at how much stronger the other classes get.

Builders have instant kill spikes.
Builders can repair damage as it's happening, leading to ridiculous moments where one builder holds out against two builders and two knights trying to get past a single-stone thickness wall. Hell, if you don't have a builder handy, you're not getting past that one tile wall if the enemy builder is waiting to repair. It's just not happening.
Archers have a close range shotgun attack that shreds the already piss-poor knight shield defense.
Archers, who were more mobile than knights before, are now WAY more mobile than knights. While knights lost two tiles of wallrunning, builders still have ladders and building to get past defenses while archer has grapple.


This is all off the top of my head, but it's already a lot more than just "Knights got a tiny nerf and archers got a new shotgun, so what?". Knights lost like, -8 while builder and archer gained +4. All in the course of two builds. Saying "people just need to adjust" doesn't really suffice when we're basically playing a completely different game from two builds ago. These two builds were nearly as big of a change as the switch from classic to beta.

Also, please explain to me what you mean by "being in control". Knights are not in control anymore. If you mean "they kill lots of things" sure, great. However, you can kill 1,000 enemies, and if you don't make significant progress towards the enemy's flag, you're just wasting your time. Knights have 1/10th the killing power they did two builds ago, and a single knight who is extremely skilled can be overpowered by two or three guys pretty easily.


For me the defining mark of this build is that while it's all about teamwork and that's fine, having a retarded team or having a % of retarded teammates basically means you're not going to win, but having one really good builder and really good knight also means you aren't going to lose, leading to stalemate-ville.

 

Well, I've never seen an archer kill three knights by himself consistently. A really good archer can change an entire match by going into the enemy base solo. But it's not really solo, because you will always need help taking out enemy forces. Before, knights did almost all the pushing and most of the tower soloing.

A really good builder + some half-decent knights/archers will win you the match. I like how you don't even include archer in there as if all they are good for is the occasional help shooting someone.

All your "knight nerfs" are just related to you wanting to solo everything with one player. Drills and tunnels are also not knight nerfs. Knights are worse at climbing towers than archers, but in order to kill a knight you have to CQC. A slash has a very far reach, so if you mess up you're dead. More than one knight? Good luck knocking them both back. 1 archer vs 2 knights should be hard, but not impossible.

In the same way aiming a bomb arrow at a far away tower while next to a knight is suicide. Or building a ladder next to a knight. Being an archer anywhere near a bomb is suicide.

The reason bombjumping costs people hearts is because it should be used to get up places, not fly over the map.

The knights that could climb nearly everything they could and wouldn't die in 1-2 hits? Archers should be the ones with tower climbing abilities.

@Klokinator
I am really not sure what you want archers to be. I also don't think you are. It's clear archers will never again be some pointless class outdone in every way by a knight.

I want an archer that is better at getting up towers and can defeat knights if the terrain is in their favour when used correctly. I don't want forced CQC or archer being overshadowed again. I believe many of the changes that have been made are good and that it is foolish to group it all together in one pile. There are more options than REVERT IT! KNIGHTS MUST FLY UP TOWERS!

A bit of goofy teamwork that eventually gets you somewhere is better than some random knight winning by himself and making your efforts seem totally wasted. The match was only ended for him, it's the same as a draw for everyone else. Not all 'teamwork' is making builders/archers do stuff to service knights. That's all we had before. Now it works all ways.
No one has said that this is KAG fully optimised. The devs are addressing the real issues:
Archer combat
Spike dropping
Shield angle

Notice how 4+ knight buffs aren't there? A knight nerf does not equal an archer buff. It doesn't necessarily mean knights are worse than archers/builders. Less useful, yes. Bomb-jumping is nothing to do with archers. It just means that knights aren't the sole class used, hence more archers.

You keep adding up points where there are no points to be added. I said knights seem weaker because there are not the main class anymore. You refuted this by saying that archers get shotgun and builders get block repair whereas knights can no longer fly over anything. (Geti made it clear that spike dropping (unrelated) and shield angle (not changed during the 'new builds') are going to be fixed) So much for +4 eh?

Your points are:
Can't climb tall towers anymore. -Inf wallclimb is stupid and you have said before you don't want it.
Knights (and the other classes) lost an additional 2 tiles of wall-running height as well. -Means towers are more easily and more quickly built. Archer grapple has more use.
Can't bombjump over a ton of towers, because now there's only two tiles of wiggle room at the top of the map instead of like, the stratosphere. -Bomb-jump/shield-glide
Bombjumping where archers are near is suicide. Speaking as someone who plays archer master race know, seeing a knight about to bomb jump is a prime target for the ol' shotgun. -Bomb-jump/shield-glide
Bombjumping will always cost you at least a heart thanks to shield gliding being useless. -Bomb-jump/shield-glide
Speaking of which, shields are paper now. Unless you're shielding a stab or arrow directly to your front, your shield will be completely ineffective. -Unrelated to new builds.
Can't use drills. -Not specific to knights.
Tunnels are made of plastic and cost an oil tycoon's fortune. -Not specific to knights.
Kegs get knocked off your back. -Unrelated to new builds as arrow spam at a distance is harder than with legolas.

Your only valid (vaguely reasonable) point is "Bomb-jump is worse." This (assuming an arbitrary points system)is -1 for knight, +1 for builder +1 for archer.
Knights were already way more powerful than they needed to be so a bit of bomb-jump nerf was probably in order.

Problems with this build does not mean reverting to the super-knight build is a good idea. Your main complaints seem to be with archer/knight combat yet you have made little suggestions to fix them and instead talk of unrelated problems.

 

I see you don't understand the concept of game balance...

Place four platforms facing forward in a horizontal row, and four platform below those facing down and all of them at the top of the map. Bomb jump is now nullified.

It would appear you can't read. An archer shooting shotgun at a knight as the knight gets shot up into the air by his bomb immediately knocks the knight back to the ground, keeping him grounded and therefore useless.

?? Do you even know what you are talking about. Shield glide lasts one second, then you fall down, like your knight GIVES UP and decides to surfboard instead of hold the shield above him. This doesn't work anymore unless you land on a really high elevation.

Uh. Yes, yes it is.

What, archers can't use drills anymore so it';s not specific to knights? I literally never saw an archer use a drill in build 1180 or prior. It was always knights and builders, so yes this IS specific to knights.

*facepalm* it is becoming apparent to me that you have no idea what you're talking about. A knight charging at the base of your tower is a prime target for a shotgun which has three chances to be hit by an archer. The disintegration doesn't take effect in the short time it takes you to aim at the ground.

This quote is cancer.

 

brah i have the solution to this dillema wait for it........BUFF EVERYTHING

im not even kidding it would solve everything

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2014, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2014 ---

here is my idea on how we go about buffing everything......add some of the knight things back, speed up builder, and perhaps have archers take less fall dmg

 

I actually agree punk, lol. Losing a ton of overpowered shenanigans has not only made beta less fun overall, it has also broken the balance the game had before.

Give builder more running speed, like maybe a 5-10% boost.
Bring back 2 more wall climb.
Remove gold cost on tunnels, replace with coin cost.
Increase knight shield power a bit (Geti said he'll do this already)
Allow knights to shield dropped spikes. (You can even keep the instakill if the knights don't shield so long as knights get some buffs. This will add a skill ceiling for spike droppers, since they can't just stand near backwall and spam, since a shielding knight is a knight that won't instantly die, yet they can use it to aid allies in combat.)
Remove teamkilling spikes/boulders.


On another note, make boulders only craftable for 40 stone at a catapult. This will prevent boulder spam somewhat (While allowing people like Anonymuse to have their boulder fun, but at greater cost and less in the first minute of gameplay) and may even encourage more boulder+catapult building demolition, like boulders were originally intended to be used for.

Speaking of boulders, if knights are stronger than they are in the current build, and maybe if they can shield up to protect themselves from boulders, that'd make boulders not OP anymore. Just IMO.

 

I love all the petty fights between Klok and NinjaCell.
You both have certain points, but NinjaCell, you are just defending these builds without thinking logically.
If I didn't know better, I'd say that you never played a game of KAG in the last 2 months.

The glide-to-surfboard thing is ridiculous, and you can't deny that. At least have it be where you then decline at a -5% or -10% speed, and still have the shield up.

I haven't actually seen a keg being used in the last 2 weeks..... Ever ....... and I have played at least 50 hours recently...
And I am pretty sure it's because of the Shotgun. So many features have pretty much been ripped away from use because of the shotgun.

People never use the surfboard for speed (or stun) as they would get destroyed by any archer within one square mile.
-
People can no longer use kegs as the shotgun will hit it no matter what, especially because of the shield reduction.
-
Frontal Builders are less common, as the enemy archers can just destroy them before they can build anything
(encouraging the practically-teamkilling walls of platforms that make people hate Builders more).
-
Battle Builders can now get one-shotted when close, whereas they need to be much closer to the enemy as they can get with their pickaxe, before being annihilated, AKA Builders are so fragile that any combat is an insta-kill, no matter what.
-
Tunnels are never used, ever, seeing as they are so expensive, and they let the enemies into base (pretty much double negative reinforcment).
-
Ballistaes are useless, as only builders and knights can actually hit enemies using or spawning there, and they still spawn while you are capping, which you can no longer instantly do due to not being able to sit in it.
-

There are so many things that got really reaaaallly fucked up in the recent builds, that you might as well name this something else, change some sprites, and sell it as a totally new game. Balance has been thrown out the window, just because some people on forums bitched about it, and now when everyone is very vocal about not liking the recent updates, nothing is being changed.

Just take out tunnels, drills, ballista, boulders (insta-kill, never used in catas), any wall-glide, the shield, being able to glide with the shield, spikes, trapblocks, lanterns, and all of these problems would be gone.

Or turn it into a Sandbox game.

EDIT: Also, teamwork is impossible these days. The good players (like myself) can't change to builder to push forward, because they are carrying the team. Is that called teamwork? No. Is there any way to get teamwork up? No. This has encouraged archers to go on their own, and try to rek shit up, not have them support, like they are supposed to be. Same with builders being more fragile than the archers. You are indefinitely going to be alone, because teamwork is no longer possible with these updates encouraging Supporter to be Attackers.

 

I like where you're going Dargona, but I disagree with this point. In fact, Ballista are MUCH more useful for the team that sets them up than before, as they are harder to take over, leading to them actually being one of a very few limited tools in your current arsenal for taking out bases.

If anything, their one crappy point is that they're easily destroyed by enemy bomb bolts, and they're pretty spammable compared to the alternatives of ... kegs and tunnels. Also, if an enemy manages to take over a ballista in the base (And I hate retarded teammates who put them in the base but eh, can't be helped) that gives the enemy a lot more ability to spawn in and wreck the base to pieces before the cata is inevitably destroyed.

Also omg, this. This so much. I can't play builder because I'm often the only person playing a good knight or a good archer on my team who actually does things, and without a good battle builder + knight/archer combo, it's very difficult to make any headway into an enemy base.

Oh, I also disagree with this. I see plenty of kegs, but I also see most of them getting shot off and then grabbed by an enemy knight, meaning kegs are way more risk than reward most of the time. Even when they do work though, the holes are easily repaired by enemy builders though so, w/e.

 

I used incredibly incorrect wording with that.
I meant that they are useless to go up against since they still spawn while being captured. Pair that with archers (only ones able to get up to the ballista, above a tall tower) being able to only hit the ballista instead of the person inside it's arrow-protective covering, and you have a pretty much unstoppable machine.

Oh, and spawning invinciblity, that makes it even more impossible.

The only thing that I could see with it being better, is to either revert to it before (the risk v. reward was good, as you had a spawn, and a siege weapon, and had to spend no time getting to a tunnel), or at least be able to change classes, and have enemies unable to spawn at the ballista while it's being captured.

Heh, I know right? Teamwork is very varied as everyone has to be good to be able to let those at-least-not-bad players able to switch, as the others on your team are apparently unable to help, or use logic, or even go to builder to dig into that one builder-hut and just instead of being a knight slashing that stone into oblivion . . . . . ..

Well, I must be on the wrong servers . . . I pretty much exclusively play on Last Kings CTF, as its the only one that I find that is hosted in the US (that isn't Black Death) and that has anyone on it. And nobody plays TTH anymore (even though everyone wants too ), so those are out of the picture.

 

I hope they do this as an april fool's day prank - joke. The forum would explode!

 

I really hated the old system, since it didn't make sense that placing a ballista down was making it just a matter of dudes playing leapfrog and everyone quickly trying to hop in and teamswap it. I vastly prefer the new system to the old. It also helps that it's sort of an archer nerf since archers were always the sneaky fucks who went behind and hopped in the ballista when nobody was looking.

I think ballista's costing 200 coins and being a bit more durable would be a good compromise. Heck, maybe by default they only spawn with 5 bolts instead of 15?

Incidentally, I think tunnels should work one of two ways that differ from the current build. Either way is acceptable.

1. Remove the gold cost and revert to their old cost, but make them much easier to destroy.
2. Keep the gold cost, but make them much harder to destroy so your gold isn't wasted by a couple knights slashing it for 6 seconds. A tunnel that costs gold is a tunnel that should be very durable.

 

people stil think im joking but it would solve everyones issues you buff every class then whittle them down to where theyre useful

 

Personally,
Watching NinjaCell and Klok argue shows what's actually making sense.

You can't solve all your problems with a now very reduced shield glide. This is not the solution to everything in the world "Bomb Jump - shield glide. You can stun a knight while he's bomb jumping with a triple shot and even if he gets off then they still take damage, a weak little shield glide is not going to solve that.

I can see where Klokinator is coming from bringing some points to mind but really NinjaCell you are just inputting from one point of view.


PS no hate intended

 

Technically everyone inputs from one point of view...
I just meant to show that his list of points wasn't that extensive as many of them were just about bomb-jumping. I wouldn't mind an increased shield glide, I just don't think that makes archers much stronger in combat.

Running up to CQC a knight with a bomb is a pretty big risk, I don't see why knights should be unstoppable when bomb-jumping, it's not something that you have to do in range of an archer unlike slashing him. Shotgun is annoying, but a regular single charge shot works just as well here.

I'd say the same to you. Surfboarding is actually pretty useful against a shotgun user unless you happen to use it as soon as they have fully charged. I'm pretty sure I have been in maybe 1 match where a keg was not used at some point. Said match was over in under 2 minutes.

Ah yes. Tunnels and ballistae sucking are a direct result of shotgun.
I am saying this in every post I make. Stop grouping every single tiny update past 1180 into a pile. The only problem to do with archers in this build is the shotgun. That's it. One change made archers into CQC monsters. That change was the shotgun. It was not everysingletinychangeimplementedineverybuildsince1180.

Not everything in this build is caused by the shotgun. Many of these updates were separate decisions and ideas. It's like me hating the "older builds" because mines were super-glitchy and everyone had drills and using that as evidence for why knights were OP.

Just because you hate spike droppers and tunnels is not a reason to declare every single change totally wrong.
You can't accuse someone of "not thinking logically" just because they don't hate everything in the "new builds".

I am not defending them blindly. I do not like every addition that has been made. I am, however, in no way suggesting that we revert everything back. There is not "old builds" and "new builds". You may not know this, but shotgun was added the build after knights were nerfed. Changing shotgun does not mean reverting knights back to 1180 status. Just because I disagree that knights should not be 75% of the classes used at all times does not mean that I am worshipping drills or tunnels or siege engines sucking. I have in fact suggested before that siege should be fixed. This is not a black-and-white argument.

All I did was agree with Geti that more archers is a good thing, reverting everything is dumb and that due fixes shall be made. I did not, anywhere say that archers are perfectly balanced. Or that spike droppers were good.