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[1239] Too many knights

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Klokinator, Sep 10, 2014.

  1. zampanothechimera

    zampanothechimera Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    110
    Yeah at the start of a ctf or tth match people instantly go to their favorite class (archer or knight) and messing around with the builders who are trying to help save them from their team that does the same thing
     
  2. xXx3stronk5u

    xXx3stronk5u Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    3
    Why, instead of nerfing archers on the whole simply make them sacrifice mobility when they use shotgun in the form of a major speed reduction? That way it will allow knights to have some way to counter the insane close damage, whilst also allowing archers to pull it off if they maneuver well.
     
    Anonymuse likes this.
  3. Anonymuse

    Anonymuse Arsonist

    Messages:
    443
    They should be twice as slow when they're holding their full-charge, allowing knights time to escape from it if they're paying attention.
     
  4. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    There are many problems with how powerful the archer are right now. But i know atleast one thing that should definitely change... You should be allowed to prevent getting hit by archers for christ sake. They can hold their arrows and just run after you with a charged shotgun for like 3 seconds. To do a permanent 2 hearts at best and 3 at worst, when you get too close. ITS UNFAIR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! GETI THIS SHIT BETTER CHANGE! IM LOSING MY PATIENCE WITH THIS GAME, AND IM NOT THE ONLY ONE! :rektlord::thumbs_down:
     
    zerd and Vampire like this.
  5. kodysch

    kodysch Bison Rider Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    Just run away. or throw a bomb at them.
     
  6. -Crimson-

    -Crimson- Haxor

    Messages:
    108
    I don't see why we cant just switch between the two? (legolas and shotgun) since half of the community are against them, and the other half aren't.
     
  7. startselect3

    startselect3 Arsonist

    Messages:
    261
    thats somewhat a good eyedea but that will actually make them more op, legolas to kill them far away and shotty close, that will only make more people russed.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  8. -Crimson-

    -Crimson- Haxor

    Messages:
    108
    well make it so it only switches to ONE of the options and you have to suicide for the change to happen?
     
  9. startselect3

    startselect3 Arsonist

    Messages:
    261
    hmm, i guess that a good idea, but i think if geti actually decides to update his game then he would probably deal with the horrendous amount of lag and crashes first, not to mention, who knows that wont cause more?
     
  10. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    i assume the only way to fix lag and crashes would be reworking the code which would take alot more effort and isnt as obvious a move as balances would be considering everyone can still play the game
     
  11. Nivlac_13

    Nivlac_13 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    115
    Why fix what isn't horrendously game-breakingly broken
    Lag and crashes are after all only a major inconvience
     
    Klokinator and startselect3 like this.
  12. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    That is obvious let me explain what i meant simply

    maybe they just dont want to fix it or cannot like in kag classic maybe think before you just keep repeating fix crashes and lag that is obviously an issue and if they could fix it they would have already also your ignorance is a major inconvience to me
     
  13. Nivlac_13

    Nivlac_13 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    115
    Now I'll admit I have very little coding experience but from what I do have I've learned that code doesn't just cause issues as major as crashing and lag. C++ is not some new innovative and unstable language, if it's broken its fixable. The question is whether its worth the effort to fix it. My post was simply that the devs should consider crashes and lag a higher priority than they do.

    Edit: OH NOES! I'VE GAINED THE ATTENTION OF THE ALL SEEING DEVS!

    Edit II: I'll just post my reply here since there's no need to spam posts. First I'd just like to say that I was right, if its broken its fixable. However in this case "fixable" appears to mean reking a whole bunch of stuff. I've gotten in to mods more recently and can attest that having tons of stuff in AngelScript makes mods super easy. Seeing the big picture it seems like a decent trade off, I don't really notice much in the way of lag and exaggeration aside, the crashes really aren't that bad. I have been put in my place, thoroughly reprimanded by the devs who secretly know what they're doing.

    Edit III: The below post needs to be a sticky somewhere. Its really good information on a common complaint.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014
    AmestriStephen likes this.
  14. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Just dropping in to say that while we're well aware of the lacklustre performance, there are a lot of things standing in the way of "just fixing it", and preventing us from treating it as a higher priority than we already do (which is much higher than some seem to think).
    • The main reason KAG is slow is that 80%+ of the game code is in AngelScript. From our measurements, AS is about an order of magnitude slower than C++. The reason for so much of the game being in AS is the community asking for more and more and more modding opportunities, which we gave them by exposing the majority of the game's code as scripts.
    • On top of this, the way the scripts are run (sequentially for each component of each object) leaves us no room to optimise their performance at an engine level. There is no way to parallelise ("multi-thread") script execution without introducing race conditions (unpredictable behaviour) and crashes without big changes (see below).
    • On top of that, the component system behind the scripts is written in a reasonably misinformed way - when everything was C++ (classic), it didn't really matter because the updates were all native code, small in terms of code size and reasonably deterministic. Now, each update of each component could run any number of scripts (which can further change at run-time) and each time needs to pass stuff between the barrier between C++ and AS. This architecture issue is also what locks the way the scripts are run in place, and prevents threading where it might otherwise be possible.
    • On top of that the game's networking code is based on a system designed for deathmatch games, with tens, not hundreds of objects; and 8, not 32 players. As many have seen, this system can choke with some extreme loads, particularly high player count when there's a lot going on. This about half the reason server CPUs are strained so much and tend to cap out before clients (tomato bombs while still at 30fps)
    • To change any of this, we'd have to basically "pull the guts out of" the game's component system, which would take a few months of solid work, and would break all mods and mods of the game scripts. Then we'd have to fix all the scripts that were broken by those changes (which would be most of them), which would largely involve rewriting the game, get modders to re-write their mods, and we'd STILL be fighting an uphill battle against the fact that most of the game is in scripts.
    As such, a full re-architecture of the engine is unlikely to happen, and (unfortunately) the "lag issues" are unlikely to ever change in a particularly meaningful, across the board kind of way.

    We've learned a lot of lessons through this, and there are things you can do script-side to ensure acceptable performance (which we are applying to the objects in Trench Run), but ultimately we'll need to apply our experience to a new engine in the future.

    Some hope: we do have intentions to move some of the more intensive scripts back into "hard coded" engine-side logic blocks, which would run faster. This would require translating various scripts from AS to C++ and giving them reserved names in the configs, which isn't a huge deal - we just need to gather data on which scripts would benefit from this most.

    @Rayne @UnnamedPlayer feel free to move this somewhere more appropriate/visible.

    @everyone else I'm happy to elaborate more on this if you're interested.
     
  15. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    How much would this really improve server performance under large loads?
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  16. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Server performance: not much - as I said, servers are usually limited by the netcode strain before they're limited by the actual game code, at least for dedis. Might let you squeeze in another player before you start getting tomato bombs I guess.
    Struggling client performance: could be the difference between "OMFG" and "playable". Some people get backbreaking FPS lag with a decent number of players and after a fair bit of time has passed. We need more diagnostic information to find the problem scripts and any other causes though - usually all we get is frustration or vitriol from affected parties though. @Rayne in particular has been helpful identifying a few troublesome scripts but it's an uphill battle as those affected often don't want to play that much, particularly on big servers, and are unaware of the script profiling options available.
     
  17. DatNobby

    DatNobby Haxor

    Messages:
    157
    I get raped by 1 fps every day.
    You're fighting the good fight Geti :heart:
     
    Psiklaw, FuzzyBlueBaron, Geti and 3 others like this.