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Knights being able to mine stone

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by LazikLion, Apr 17, 2015.

Mods: Rainbows
  1. LazikLion

    LazikLion Arsonist

    Messages:
    62
    I think this was in classic (cant remember) but i think its a good idea to allow knights to be able to dig and collect stone. Once they have mined some stone they are able to bring it back to either a defensive builder or an offensive builder who is unable to collect the stone himself. This would make knights less idle and more productive, for example, you go to the front lines and are faced with a huge tall tower with no bombs and no money to buy the bombs. Rather than just staring at the tower and waiting for your enemies to come out you could just dig a little bit of stone (maybe 30-40 stone or so) and give it to an offensive builder. To those of you thinking its just too easy and op, perhaps so, but lets not forget you expose yourself to archers one you start digging so it could be a case of 20 stone for a loss of a heart or two.
    Added on suggestions to the suggestion
    • Maybe make it that when a knight digs stone he only gains 50% of it (bit like a drill)
    • Possibly make it not only for stone but for trees
     
    RadioActive and Potatobird like this.
  2. LegendBeta

    LegendBeta Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    137
    Maybe bring back drills for knights?
    And allow it to collect stone?
     
  3. heX_

    heX_ Bison Rider

    Messages:
    193
    Both of those ideas would make knight OP. Knight is pretty much perfect as it is, just leave it be imo.
     
  4. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Ahahahhaha

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

    Oh man this idea is garbage.

    I don't even care about this game at all anymore and yet when I saw the title to this suggestion I had to do my duty to post.

    Please stahp.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  5. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    2 years later and you're still an autist and a cunt.
     
  6. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    This isn't even that bad of an idea. I don't think it would make knights op, he isn't suggesting being able to mine stone blocks. Knights can already slash stone ore, they just don't get any stone for it.

    But I still think knights would be better suited for defending builders to allow them to set up a safe area to mine rather than doing the mining themselves. Adding this change would kinda just promote solo mentality rather than teamwork in pubs.
     
  7. LazikLion

    LazikLion Arsonist

    Messages:
    62
    Cool, i see where you are coming from, but if i was a knight and was able to mine stone i would bring it to an offensive builder already building a tower, whilst he is building the tower you might be able to give him a 50 extra stone(i would only do this in the battlefield is quiet) thus an increase in your teams productivity. In fact i think we would see more teamwork between the knight and builder.

    I'm not suggesting that a knight mine for 200 stone but rather just a little bit of stone that will save a builder precious seconds. If this suggestion were to go through and be a part of the game
    1) i don't even think noobs in pub matches will know of this
    2) if they come to learn of it, i think they will still go out and kill oncoming opponents

    But for experienced knights who would know how to use this correctly i think it would/could be a vital tool for builders and knight
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
    Potatobird likes this.
  8. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    You know, you're probably right actually. I can't really see pub knights thinking "Wow, I can mine stone! I think that's what I'll do for the next five minutes. The builders will be so grateful." And I also think that if a knight is good enough to be able to adequately defend a builder from bombs and arrows, they'll probably understand the importance of that and do that rather than mine. I think it would have an effect, but it would probably just be very small. That said, anything that could potentially make builder more frustrating (like getting blown up more often due to knights choosing to mine) is something that I think should be dealt with cautiously.

    And hey, that was me actively trying to find reasons not to add this.

    I've also thought of some more benefits:
    • Maps would have more consistent and predictable (to mapmakers) stone supply due to random slashes not taking stone out of the game
    • Knights wouldn't have to feel guilty about wasting stone while slashing to help builders dig tunnels faster (or for any other purpose
    I think those would probably be better reasons to add it than it being intended for use as an actual useful strategy. (I don't see too much quiet time in kag.)

    However, there are some potential annoyances that could come with this depending on how it's implemented... they'd be at least somthing to think about.
    If you accidentally slash some stone (which will probably end up being the majority of the stone mined by knights), where does that minuscule amount go? Inventory? It could be annoying always having a slot filled with 2 stone ore that you didn't want there. On the ground? Hard to see, more pickup clutter (I can already see myself picking up a clump of pebbles instead of a lit bomb/keg), and could possibly strain servers (?).

    As for a potential solution to those annoyances, perhaps having the stone amount slashed (whether a reduced amount for balance or what) stay inside of the block until it's been completely destroyed (at which point the little-but-not-minuscule stone pile would pop out) would do the trick. That way,
    • People wouldn't be bothered by little pebbles everywhere a stone block was damaged. It would only come in chunks.
    • Knights would only have incentive to mine if they really had a lot of time to mine the ore block all the way, so would be more likely to defend builders instead. Or they could seek out already partially mined blocks if they didn't have as much time.
    • Builders would get a nice surprise if they finished an ore block off that a knight had slashed and a little pile of stone popped out :)
    • It would be more subtle in general.
    However, I don't know how easy that would be to implement, and it might actually be more technically strenuous than just having little pebbles everywhere (but would certainly be less annoying). I just don't know enough about kag coding to say for sure.

    So yeah, actually a pretty good idea imo. I could see it being nice in gather too, because a lot of knights get antsy with all the standing around and having standoffs with your enemies. (I sometimes end up minecrafting to farm coins rather than have to stand around as a knight, and then when there's actually a fight I don't have time to switch to knight and help my team out :L )
     
    Sky_Captain_Bjorn and LazikLion like this.
  9. heX_

    heX_ Bison Rider

    Messages:
    193
    That's kind of the point, it would strengthen the role of knight even more which is bad imo. Knights can already hinder enemy builders a lot, and now they'd be able to go to the front and hack away at the precious stone supply. What's a builder gonna do, run out and stop him?
    You're saying "noobs won't even know of this", how is that a good thing in a game with this steep a learning curve already?

    I can't see this going any other way than imbalance the knight vs builder.
     
  10. Sky_Captain_Bjorn

    Sky_Captain_Bjorn Bison Rider

    Messages:
    28
    What if archers had this skill instead of knights? Just going to put that out there...
     
  11. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Don't just look at things in terms of buffs and nerfs, think about what sort of effects overall each change would have. Looking at it as "All the classes need to be equal in power, and this buffs knights, who are already too powerful" is just not very useful.

    You do offer an actual point as well, though.
    But the thing is, knights can already go to the front and hack away at the stone supply, but the stone then vanishes from the game (which is bad for reasons I talked about last post). This change wouldn't affect knight vs builder balance, except for the knight/builder teamwork thing I talked about earlier.

    Noob-friendliness is a good thing to think about, but we don't need to be scared of introducing things that won't really affect new players. Adding little tricks and secrets that only experienced players would learn about doesn't make the game harder to get into. This change doesn't steepen the learning curve, it heightens the learning curve (basically it creates another thing for experienced players to learn to use without requiring new players to use it). A steep learning curve can be frustrating, but a tall learning curve is a great thing. It's one of the reasons I'm still playing this game after like a year and a half, there's always new little intricacies that I'm learning about. That's how it's a good thing.

    Eh, I don't think archers need this as much as knights. They can't already break stone ore blocks, and because they're a class with more freedom (what with having a grapple hook and being able to shoot over walls), they kind of always have something they could be doing instead of whacking the ground.
     
    LazikLion and Sky_Captain_Bjorn like this.
  12. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    This is a tiny change and there is no reason not to implement it.

    EDIT: That being said, the devs likely aren't going to bother with it. Just make it a mod and offer the scripts to devs, I think it'll have a good chance of getting implemented.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  13. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,275
    The builder's pickaxe doesn't even fucking work correctly 1/2 the time and we want to allow other classes to mine? Total bullcrap

    Yes I get the whole "dont see it as a buff" but the reason not to implement it is because mining out in the open is suppose to be dangerous; a knight with a shield a sword stabbing at the ground would both be useless, stupid looking, and defeating the purpose of a fragile resource collecting builder
     
    Egholm and ShnitzelKiller like this.
  14. LazikLion

    LazikLion Arsonist

    Messages:
    62
    As a builder i wouldn't mine out in the open ever unless there was no one on the battlefield which is a rare occurrence. So yes it is dangerous to mine stone out in the open and you'll almost always die, even with cover almost all that is needed is a single bomb, so why not introduce something that will allow you to mine stone in the open. and usually places between mid and either blue or red flag is not really abundant in stone.

    "fragile resource collecting", if i want mats im just gonna go back to the home tent, if i want wood i'm just gonna go to the saw and if i want stone i'm just gonna go the mine thats already set up at base that has plenty of stone. I almost never have a problem with collecting mats throughout the game, the only time i will is when its a stalemate thats been going for 2 hours and the map has been torn down due to keg drops until the ground becomes bedrock. That being said, if i wanting 30 stone quickly or it would be handy to have an extra 30 stone for something like back wall and a knight who has been idle on the battlefield brings me 30 stone this would be tremendous as i would be able to setup the back wall and go back to base with some assurance that that tower will have more of a chance of standing

    And i don't understand what you mean by "builders pickaxe doesn't even fucking work correctly 1/2 the time". The only time it doesn't work for me is when im fighting which is understandable. The knight is not a resource collecting unit, so it would make sense that they could only gather resources like a drill would (except it would be at the pace of how fast they can jab)
     
  15. I wouldn't want to see this mainly because I would hate not being able to pick up a bomb because I unknowingly auto-collected 2 stone.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2015, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2015 ---
    Also I hope giving knights the ability to use drills again was a joke. That shit was grade A cancer.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  16. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Yep, knight drills are awful. As for the stone clogging up knight inventories, that's avoidable:
    If you accidentally slash some stone (which will probably end up being the majority of the stone mined by knights), where does that minuscule amount go? Inventory? It could be annoying always having a slot filled with 2 stone ore that you didn't want there. On the ground? Hard to see, more pickup clutter (I can already see myself picking up a clump of pebbles instead of a lit bomb/keg), and could possibly strain servers (?).

    As for a potential solution to those annoyances, perhaps having the stone amount slashed (whether a reduced amount for balance or what) stay inside of the block until it's been completely destroyed (at which point the little-but-not-minuscule stone pile would pop out) would do the trick. That way,
    • People wouldn't be bothered by little pebbles everywhere a stone block was damaged. It would only come in chunks.
    • Knights would only have incentive to mine if they really had a lot of time to mine the ore block all the way, so would be more likely to defend builders instead. Or they could seek out already partially mined blocks if they didn't have as much time.
    • Builders would get a nice surprise if they finished an ore block off that a knight had slashed and a little pile of stone popped out :)
    • It would be more subtle in general.
    However, I don't know how easy that would be to implement, and it might actually be more technically strenuous than just having little pebbles everywhere (but would certainly be less annoying). I just don't know enough about kag coding to say for sure.
    *copied from earlier post*
     
  17. Egholm

    Egholm Shipwright

    Messages:
    31
    I get the idea of this and sure it could help out in some cases, but it just sounds too absurd to have knights able to dig stone.
    I can only imagine how often we'll encounter:
    • Knights just waiting for the enemies to attack while mining stone instead of pushing forward.
    • A builder waiting for a push could've gotten twice the amount of stone out of the mine, the knights just dug out instead of pushing and allowing the builder to get the right timing when to get out there and build.
    • Knights way more often choose to dig under the front-walls cause now they can gather the stone too.
    • Beefiest character in the game with powerful slashes and shield now wielding drills? (Also digging same speed too?) Say goodbye to offensive builders in general...
    I can only see this taking away the need of teamwork between classes... Let knights be knights.

    Public matches aren't as competitive as they are simple games where all skill levels play together. Let's not target the direction of development to what could happen in a public match where there's way different skill levels rather than focusing on the real problem:

    If you find yourself stranded outside the enemy wall then call for the builder or get an archer making arrow ladders or thirdly go builder yourself. I know that sometimes there's too many minecrafting builders etc. But it's public matches. You shouldn't expect every game to be the most well organized game in KAG history.
    Just tell people what needs to be done and see if they listen, just watch the tone and often it'll go well. If not, well shit happens.
     
    blackjoker77777 likes this.
Mods: Rainbows