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The Problem

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Contrary, Feb 23, 2012.

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  1. Korin

    Korin Shark Slayer

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    12
    I'm also not getting why when I shield myself from bombs, it's essentially a cointoss as to whether or not I survive.

    Whereas it seems like every other knight in the vicinity can use it as a jumping mechanism.
     
  2. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Korin: likely lag related.

    This is an interesting discussion. I'll put some thoughts of mine here:

    The balance of KAG is going to get a turn-around at some point. I've been musing about this with some of the guys on IRC from time to time, and here are some changes that I think are necessary in the long run:

    Removing team-only vertical travel, so that doors at the top of towers aren't "the norm". This means no doorladders and no trapbridge ladders, or more easily dealt with trapbridge ladders. The whole stigma against doors at ground level thing is frustrating because it means you don't get normal castles being built, you get walls with a door at the top being built.

    Upping fall damage and removing ways to save yourself from fall damage : this means skybridges are impossible to use from any height higher than say, 10 tiles (which is easily bombable), and that bomb jumpers would have to be very careful about what they do after they get onto a roof. Ladders would no longer catch you from fall damage and landing on someone from a height would hurt both you and them. The "safe fall" height would likely be around 5 tiles with the damage going up fairly sharply from there. It's currently not properly related to velocity, I think, which could certainly use tweaking.

    I actually liked it when (for one test build) knights couldn't break constructions, including doors and backwall. Why? Because it made castles something they couldn't deal with, they needed a builder or a lot of bombs. Doors as they are now are little more than paper because once knights get to them they get cut through in a second. This is another part of the main cause of the "doors up top" trope, which again, is retarded. I know this leads to knights getting that whole "nothing to do" thing if they get to the foot of a castle alone, but consider: what should one infantry unit with a sword and shield be able to do against a castle? Shit all, imho. They can bring a keg if they want to be the guy that breaches the door.

    I think buildings are both overpowered and underpowered - they stand up to a hell of a beating but once they actually get to your doors that's more or less the end of the structure. I dont think it should be solved as simply as letting knights break everything. They get put up way too quickly though, I'll agree with that.

    Knight combat needs to be less spammy: jab spamming should make you immobile and not stun those it hits, only push them, and jabs should not clash with slashes (which happens now and is very annoying). That way jabs beat slashes at close range but slashes beat jabs at long range.
    Archers shooting also needs to be less spammy, I think simply raising the minimum charge would work fine there, the charge shot time is good as is.
    Builders should have a longer time between hits.

    In general I think anything where spamming is the best option is a bad thing - jabbing, building at the start and using arrows at murder holes are good examples of things that need alteration in that respect.

    We'll likely be addressing this after the zombies build is released. Keen to hear more thoughts on it really. Would everyone hate more fall damage? Would standing still while jabbing with knights be a bad thing?
     
  3. AJ

    AJ Emperor of Mankind Donator

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    592
    Clashing removal?
     
    Foxodi likes this.
  4. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    No, increasing the time between jabs would be better than removing clashing.

    I'm not sure if I'd like the fall damage increase, but am not against trying it out at least.
     
    MooCowMan likes this.
  5. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    3,620
    If you increase time between jabs knights will get raped by builders the second they go to clash, builders attack already faster than they do.
     
  6. Korin

    Korin Shark Slayer

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    12
    Slow down knights powering up a slash a little bit more. Same with archers charging a long shot.

    Perhaps give knights a giant powder keg for 50g that does like a triple explosion and can only be set down and activated while standing still?
     
  7. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    Powder kegs are coming (for all classes, and for 50g standard currently yea).

    Slowing down knight's full slash more would suck, but a lot less variability and stability in knight fighting is what matters. Where you're SUPPOSED to be able to attack (full only) a slash is pretty fucking balanced right now, where most people manage to (75%) is decently balanced, where some few people manage to repeatedly (25~50%) is fucking OP. It's a problem of either desync or stability, slowing it down will just increase the disparity between those who end up with this special sort of lag or whatever that makes those fast ones and those of us who don't.
     
  8. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    Um..
    But this:
    Meaning builders would have slower attack as well.
     
    Sapirot likes this.
  9. Korin

    Korin Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    12
    Builders are carrying heavy ass hammers.

    Why they're able to spam attack is curious.
     
    Karlford_of_Acre likes this.
  10. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    3,620
    Was quite unsure if his post was adding onto it or making a separate statement.
     
  11. Fellere825

    Fellere825 KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    890
    Get the new siege weaponry (battering rams, ballistas, giant transportable ladders, siege towers) into play and you'll have more anti-building balance.
     
  12. Zefree

    Zefree Shopkeep Stealer

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    81
    I'd like to say that, this time, I absolutely agree with Geti X3 (and by extension killatron)

    I don't see any reason why a single player should be able to pick Knight, and then proceed to Rambo the other team. It's a game with "teams" for a reason. I too can see the argument behind buildings being too quickly put up, but I think the "overpowered" aspect is more of the meta-game than any balance issues.

    Too many players play as -individuals- and expect the game to be fairly balanced for them. Keeping loosely with the medieval theme, wars were won by armies and sieges, not by flying-knight-ninjas who eat stone and poop out death and dismemberment. I would personally love to see fall damage increased for the same reasons. I get tired of one or two lucky jumpers slaughtering an entire team.

    Additionally, if the Build Phase were removed I don't think I would even be able to play the game any more. I could only see that leading to a big "Rush Fest" where the team with the fastest movers and best jabs wins.
     
  13. ChronoWaster

    ChronoWaster Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    49
    Only being able to jab standing still would be interesting, but it would make knights useless Vs. archers. increasing fall damage may be a bit annoying, what if when falling on an enemy you took half damage, and they took full? also for bomb jumping, I can see how a Nerf is necessary, but bomb jumping is really fun and i personally enjoy it :p. and about the Team door issue, maybe if you made a steel/stone door that opened and closed very slowly, only when you press E next to it, and cannot be destroyed by knights. This would make it so that you can put doors on the bottom without your tower being structurally weak, but not being to as OP as a stone wall you can walk through, because players can sneak in during the closing phase.
     
  14. Bracket

    Bracket KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    243
    Oooh, I really like your views on the construction, with making it more realistic and stuff. I like everything about that post. Fall damage, no team vertical movement, better knight combat... It's really original and mostly stuff I'd never even considered. Dooo eeeeeeet. :yes:


    Edit: Oh also, in a similar line of thought, I think it would be interesting if arrow team-damage became the norm. It would lead to fewer unrealistic Knight+Archer death combos, and more squads of archers arcing shots over their allies into the middle of enemy groups. Realism. Not sure if it would be the best gameplay improvement.... but I'm really intrigued by the other realistic stuff you mentioned adding, and this would fit.
     
  15. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    So I kind of don't want to write an essay but I need to to adequately adress even just a few of these responses. Geti just said something about how it's probably easier to do this kind of thing over IM. Maybe we should get together a big conference of oldfags and balance enthusiasts and just have a big powow about it.

    Looks like Geti is gving this topic some real interest; lets try to get our shit together so it'll be worth his time.
     
  16. alexsdsd

    alexsdsd Shipwright

    Messages:
    19
    I think that front line builders are OP in the way that they basically dig right under most of your towers and lock themselves in with stone. I hate it so much when you build a castle and some builder locks him/herself in and destroys it.
     
  17. Baron_Norab

    Baron_Norab KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    145
    This is something I would love to see implemented, along with a nerf to the terrain destructiveness of bombs, making them more of a frag grenade rather than a satchel charge, but that might just be me. I feel the demolition of structures should be solely the realm of the builder.

    I'd also love to see the ability to deflect bombs with your shield as a knight.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  18. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    3,730
    Yeah I'll be watching this keenly and pop in with a comment from time to time. We'll be combating entombing with suffocation fwiw, so if you're in an area with no air holes you die slowly.
     
  19. SonidZero

    SonidZero Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    2
    Yea lets remove the buildings so we can play Gang Garrison but worse.

    Buildings are the best part of KAG and why I choose to play it.

    How on earth did "matches just turn into projectile spam due to buildings" go to "LETS NERF BUILDINGS" and not "Yea we should probably nerf archers."

    Here's an idea, make arrows weaker, or harder to obtain, but make archers more agile or give them another advantage. The problem is the arrow spam, NOT the buildings.

    Buildings going up out of nowhere is the FUNNEST PART OF KAG, let alone the thing that sets it apart from every other game with multiplayer rounds like this.

    ALSO HERES AN IDEA

    Weapon Workshop that lets classes switch to an alternate weapon type.

    Knights Swords would no longer break anything, but they could switch to an axe that can break as fast as they can now, but is weaker damage-wise. Also make doors take longer to break because it's just silly how fast they go down.

    This also opens up the possibility of an alternate weapon for the other two classes.
     
  20. CoughDrop

    CoughDrop KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    66
    This.
    I always like to imagine that when doing rapid fire, an archer says "to hell with my bow!" and dumps his quiver upside-down over his attackers. ~giggles~

    Not one bit, however I'm of the opinion that archers should have higher fall-damage thresholds to offset the knight's gliding maneuver.

    I think it would be, yes. See, it would compliment knight vs. knight combat; and slowing down the builder's attacks would not forfeit the knight's superiority against one. However, as an archer, I have a feeling this would make mid-range to close-quarters combat against a knight a bit too easy. A slash-charging knight is an unshielded knight. ...Then again, it depends on how much of a waiting period there is per jab.

    Perhaps we should get a comprehensive list of combat variables we are willing to tweak to get a bigger picture.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, JacKD, Zuboki and 2 others like this.
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