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[1591] Water bomb Discussion

Discussion in 'Knight' started by neil58, Sep 9, 2015.

  1. neil58

    neil58 Horde Gibber Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)
    2. Black Death Servers

    Messages:
    70
    POSTS MERGED IN FROM ANOTHER THREAD ~ParaLogia

    The problem with water bombs is that knights can use them the ideal times in a fight. Water arrows on the other hand require some form of skill and communication from the archer and the knight. For the most part, the knight has no idea whatsoever when the archer is going to fire off a water arrow (except if they're using voice chat). Moreover, water arrows usually don't mean an instakill due to archers doing a max of 2 hearts, while knights could usually only fit a slash in. Meanwhile, the knight can use the water arrow right before a double slash; allowing to kill all the enemies within his/her radius. IMHO I think this is the reason why so many people have a problem with waterbomb spam.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2015
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  2. Obione5256

    Obione5256 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    36
    I personally (tell me if I'm wrong.) haven't seen any large issue with water bombs. I would argue that cheap shot the water bomb gives is good for the game, and is balanced by the rather expensive price of the water bomb, and by the fact that is has far less versatility than the cheaper regular bomb.
     
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  3. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    436
    @Obione5256 I read your comment and watched your video, while some of it makes sense for some aspects, I feel that water bombs for kag in particular are a little bit different. when talking about things that require little skill and give great power, nube tubes in cod arent the same as water bombs, from what i know, there isnt an item that is easy to use and completly imobilizes your opponent or opponents for 2 seconds in cod. where as in kag there is, it completely immobilzes you, rendering you useless for the next 2 seconds while you will likely die. I just feel that for as strong as water bombs are, there needs to be some type of nerf that makes it not as rediculously powerful as it is right now.
     
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  4. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    847
    Ya, instead it just instantly kills you without the need to finish them off ;D.
     
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  5. heX_

    heX_ Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    202
    Someone suggested water bombs should work like bombs in that they don't explode on impact; that seems like a decent solution.
     
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  6. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    436
    Indeed it does, however I fear that most people that use water will get very upset if that happens. If that is in fact the case, then maybe making it so they don't collide with enemies would be good. Otherwise, we could consider making them require only half the time to blow up than the normal bomb and not explode on impact.
     
  7. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Drill Rusher

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    847
    Taking a time to blow up would be cool as long as the water cannot be shielded against like it can now, same for no player collisions.
     
  8. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

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    436
    Why would you want water to go through your shield? I think if water were to blow up in half the time,not explode on impact, and not be shieldable , water bombs would be the same or possibly stronger than they were before... Unless your talking about direct hits, but let's be real here, the only real way to effectively nerf water bombs is to just make them not explode on impact.
     
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  9. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Horde Gibber Official Server Admin
    1. KAG Competitive League
    2. Competitive KAG

    Messages:
    79
    kek. Of course water bombs will never be removed, so why not just support a price increase? I support a price increase for water bombs and think it would make water bombs a less desirable item to buy.
     
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  10. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Drill Rusher

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    847
    But then what's the point of even using water? It's just a non-damaging bomb that stun for just enough time to get one slash in and you can't use to bomb jump.
     
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  11. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    770
    Ked doesn't like water because it prevents him from mowing down a shit ton of noobs in their base. Water is a pretty expensive item considering it won't give you the coins back on hit. It's used to shutdown top tier players so that they can't continue to demolish everything in their path. I don't know that many people that buy water to begin with. I don't have a problem with it. It's especially more useful in clan wars, which I'm surprised not that many clans use water. I don't see anything wrong with water because the thrower is required to aim, and proceed to slash in order to kill. It's not like you can get a hit every time and even if you do, you're not going to always land a kill
     
  12. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    436
    Currently maltager water bombs are a form of disabling, which really is uncounterable. You could say that it's possible to catch them, but that's literally the most difficult singular task to accomplish. You would need to expect it first of all, then factoring in lag and that it collides with you, it becomes nearly impossible to catch. An item like water, requiring so little effort and skill to use effectively, which only counter is easily the most difficult thing to perform, does not sound like balance to me. I believe in the idea that any thing in the game should be counterable, so far pretty much everything has a counter accept water bombs. I can see a price increase, but they are already 40 coins. If there was one however I can see a 5 coin increase where not too many complain but the problem doesn't really get solved. More suitable pricing would be 50 coins, but then everyone would hate that. In the end a price increase is merely putting a bandaid on the solution, where in reality stitches are required.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2015, Original Post Date: Sep 10, 2015 ---
    Swine is it really fair that some guy who has played the game for about 1 day can simply use an item to kill a player that has played for over a year? Even if they use the water and don't manage to get a slash off, which is hard to mess up I might add, there could always be a more competent player to just kill the stunned enemy.
     
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  13. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    847
    I understand that, I also hate water bombs. What I'm saying is IF water bombs were going to go to a bomb-style fuse (maybe half length), that the shield should not be able to stop them hitting you like it is now the case (unless a direct hit, which would no longer exist if the change occurs). If there is a fuse, there is then a time to see and then react to the water bomb and therefore you can run away / rush them to make them water themself or something. Personally I'm all for this change, only remaining thing to dislike is that knights still have access to a support-class's weapon, but whatever.
    The problem with water bombs in their current form is that they can kill anyone 90% (@daskew87) of the time in the hands of a decent user. I think if someone like Kedram used water bombs, he would be an unstoppable force and I would not want to face a water-bombing Kedram. Water bombs need a counter. There is currently no counter because you can't tell if the enemy has water bombs because by the time you've reacted to them having it, you're already wet. I'd argue the same for water arrows and bomb arrows, but it's less of a problem.
     
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  14. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Horde Gibber Official Server Admin
    1. KAG Competitive League
    2. Competitive KAG

    Messages:
    79
    :wink: I would definitely argue the same for water arrows. Ked says that water bombs are a form of disabling, well so are water arrows. And I can't say I agree with @TheDirtySwine on a lot, but he is spot on about water. They still require skill to throw and aim and there is no guarantee you won't stun yourself. Before the steam sale, people were complaining about not enough people coming back to the game, obviously experienced knights shredding through inexperienced players contributed to the problem. Water bombs offer a crutch for new players and a way for experienced players to make an impact on games (like archers do with water). And they technically can't kill anyone like Tiger is suggesting, and the stun time imo is over exaggerated by those who want to oversimplify the game to their advantage.
     
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  15. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

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    436
    I understand the new player dilemma, this problem however is not a result of good players killing bad players, but that there isn't enough people playing the game, practically every new player ends up being on a server against people who are substantially better than them because of this. Most people quit because they aren't facing new players, but instead players who they will literally never kill. I think that water bombs in general should give the user an amount of power, but not so much power that it basically overrides anything that any person can do. The way I personally feel that should be handled is in one of 2 ways. Either make water not explode on impact unless it is thrown from a considerable height with considerable force, or make water just not stun you if you shielding(including directhits) @Darknighte9 your reasoning of water only really applies to pub matches, clan wars are inherently different and you can almost undoubtably expect anyone using water bombs to be above average at using them.
     
  16. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Drill Rusher

    Messages:
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    To keep new players here, what you need an easy to use but counterable weapon, not a difficult to use uncounterable weapon. Example of easy to use counterable weapon: noob tube - you can easily shoot someone with it and kill them instantly. Counter? Headshot them, dodge. Example of hard to use uncounterable weapon: water bomb - you can throw it, noobs will end up stunning themself and dying most likely, but pros could easily stun anyone they want and deal a free 2, 3 or even 4 hearts depending on the situation. Counter? Run a macro that spams c over and over.

    A good example of a counterable but easy to use weapon in KAG are keg drops. Any noob can throw it down and get a lot of easy kills. But you can catch it and turn it against them by blowing up their base.
     
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  17. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    436
    When it comes to archers, considering they are squishy and the main support class, they deserve to have water arrows, however aspects about them need changing. In ctf they definitely need a 5 coin increase. The only thing ridiculously broken about water arrows is that you can charge a normal arrow to full, then instantly whip out your water arrow at the last second for a completely unavoidable stun, while some of you might not think thats a big issue, I want you to consider just how hard it is to kill... @Kububv or any other archer you might know. The only way your going to kill them is with a bomb or if they happen to make a mistake. Lighting a bomb against an archer using this tactic will definitely result in your death, simply because there was nothing YOU could do. You didn't make a mistake, but because of this one feature the archer was able to kill you. Now I admit this doesn't happen too often but when it does, I feel the death was extremely unfair. Other than the occasional archer that wastes 100 coins on 10 water arrows so he can stun lock an entire group of enemies for what feels like an eternity, nothing else really needs to change about water arrows, in my opinion.
     
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  18. daskew87

    daskew87 Legendary corpse humper Donator

    Messages:
    428
    trustat.jpg
     
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  19. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    770
    The logic behind your argument is that if person is decently coordinated, the item they are using is op. For example: I am accurate with a fire arrow; I can hit and kill an enemy archer, therefore the fire arrow is now OP because the enemy archer doesn't have many choices to avoid my fire arrow.

    What's about mines? They instantly kill you and can be unavoidable if thrown correctly. Kegs can be unavoidable if slashed at a fast enough velocity. Bombs can blow up multiple enemies if thrown correctly. Heck, I killed two enemies with one jab the other day. Water is in the game to shut down good players. Any clan could take on the best clan if they were coordinated enough. I haven't seen a single clan use water as much as they need to in order for it to be effective against top tier clans.

    I don't hear you complaining about fire arrows or these other things...
     
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  20. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    436
    I understand punk, will stop posting here. Before I leave, @TheDirtySwine most items are completely counterable as long as you don't mess up defending yourself. Water on the other hand doesn't really allow you to defend yourself because of how it works and what it does, basically I'm saying water bombs have too much of an effect on a player or players and overrides anything you could ever do to stop it, besides getting really lucky and managing to catch it. Every other item has an escape, and they don't overpower any one player unless they themselves make a mistake when trying to deal with them. If you want to continue this discussion send me a pm :3
     
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