[228] Archer Discussion

This log is only posted for reference.
This is not meant to restrict the discussion only to the contents of the log.

Code:

Changes build 203-228:

- added pre-game launcher

- added (windows only for now) ingame web browser with links to:
(manual, wiki, IRC chat, creating account)

- added server favorites

- added in-game Manual by SirSalami

- removed player name mouse hover chat

- clicked server in server browser updates ping meter icon

- improved first ping performance in server browser

- added double click join to server browser

- added building time/match started information in server preview

- added menu music

- changed collapse physics

- fixed ambient sounds

- fixed screenshot folder on Linux

- fixed crash in editor mode when jumping on bridge

- fixed builder can't pick 3rd heart

- fixed door pick sound being wood

- builder has to stand still to build

- autoupdater does not require restart

- changed collapse physics

- console accepts \ and / for commands

- bridge takes 20 wood

- bridges and ladders can't be built only against dirt background

- optimized all game object collisions

- icons in scoreboard are double size

- class icons point in same direction and builder is distinguished from sword more

- can't shield against falling blocks

- can't destroy rooms after match has started (anti-griefing)

- fixed far view on fixed camera for lower resolutions

- added disclaimer after server startup for sv_allow_globals_mods variable

- rooms require 5 hits to destroy

- changed some HUD fonts (including above head chat)

- added command-line option to start server with specific ip,port,slots eg.
ip 123.124.125.126 port 50213 slots 32

- added break_time_static for a build time that doesn't change with number of players

 

doesn't say anything about archers D:

 

Nah it doesn't, but changed physics affect all of us, also new bugs or other weird things that we may not know about. I just post the changelog for reference.

 

So is this the thread now where I come to complain about the Archer being boring? :)

The first one is closed now, I assume because the game version has changed.

 

Archers are not boring if you know how to use them its a lot funner to bounce around shooting arrows and annoying knights then sitting on top of a tower sniping

 

yeah thats why the old archer was fun. everyone's complaining because you can't do that anymore

 

you can still do it requires a bit of practice though :)

 

If you wish so you can come here and complain about how they STILL haven't changed the archer to be more fun, I don't mind, its apropriate to give out your opinion, it would be far better to add something interesting though that hasn't been brough up before... then again who am I to judge whats interesting about archer? Maybe people find complaints about the archer being boring FRIGGIN amazing :D

 

Well I hear about this "practice" all the time... Supposedly everything in the game takes some mythical practice to be good at.
I play for several hours each day, with varying play styles each session, and I can tell you that if you "bounce around shooting arrows and annoying knights" then it's a coinflip whether you even live. Even less of a chance that you actually kill the knight. The archer is not designed for this (rightly so) and it does not excel at this.

I personally don't really care about jumping around. Maybe my internet is bad (it is) or maybe I am noob. But I think you are missing MY point about the archer being boring.

U get to shot arrow.

That's it.

Like I said before the Knight is a varied and entertaining class. A personal example:

I was playing some "Unlimited Respawns" game, and for some reason I had a huge difficulty getting arrows. So I decided to switch to Knight for a while to be useful.

Revelation!

"Good God!" I thought, "What in Camelot is this magnificent being I am controlling?" I could blow people up, I could fight in hand to hand with anyone I pleased, and I was impervious to all but the most ludicrous missile fire. I got to experience real team-play by lifting my brothers in arms to new heights with my shield.

"Oh no..." I realized.

I can see now that the Knight will always be the favorite.

The hottest sister.
The crispiest chickenwing.
The freshest apple.

The homely, undercooked, sour Archer will never be loved.

It has no features that make it desirable. Nothing that actively makes it a desirable team mate, that is actually fun to play. Sure, 1 Archer + 1 Knight beats 2 Knights... But it becomes so formulaic for the Archer. "I better spam full-power arrows so my more exciting comrade can kill these fools." No bombs. No fire arrows. No nets.

No nothing but shot an arrows.

Designed as a loner, with no real way to survive on its own, even considered a "Support" class by its proponents now--in the AlphaBeta stage of the game.

It will always be boring at this rate.

 

For some reason i just love that entire post.
Plus i am mainly a knight player as well

 

I guess to actually add something to the discussion you have to see what can be added to the archer that compares well with the other classes.

I know it may seem that I bitch about it a lot, but to me the bomb doesn't really seem like something a Knight would use. I personally think the Builder class would be more likely..... Anyways.

If the Knight can haz bom. Then the options for the Archer are more open.

The Archer is intended as the mobility/stealth class. The mobility options for the Archer are probably the best in the game (you can argue that the Builder is better, but the structures he/she makes are what gives them mobility, not a feature of the class)

Great!

What the Archer has failed to become however, is the "Stealth" class of the game. Hiding in grass and hiding behind bodies, supposed avenues of stealth, are basically deathwishes at best.

So what can you do?

The first thing that comes to mind is some kind of limited invisibility effect, perhaps a "Camouflage Suit" that takes up the F ability and is effective for a short time only. But I personally think that invisibility is tacky and boring in most uses. Even worse, if the invisibility is not 100% even a moderately attentive opponent can catch you.

So that is out imo.

What about something more aggressive? Something more in line with the idea of the "Medieval Ninja"? That just sounds more fun already! Perhaps a kind of "Rope Arrow" as has been mentioned before, that allows team mates to scale walls? Talk about having the Archer as a new best friend in a squad. I think you could balance the effect of a near instant ladder (the rope-arrow) by just making the climbing speed particularly slow.

The defenders should have plenty of time to respond if they are ready?

Hell you could even make it a fun offensive weapon by giving it a snare kind of effect, slowing the target down. Or maybe for more lulz, you could let the Archer pull the enemy that has been struck with the arrow?

Builder standing in a precarious high ground?

lolno!

The next thing that comes to mind is of course the special damage arrows (realistically the only actual addition to the archer, considering it's presence in the advertising).

We all know what fire-arrows do.

What about something really kinky like a plague-arrow? Maybe an Area-of-Effect Damage-Over-Time thing? Perhaps you could have an additional mechanic wherein the initial "victim" is infected for a short time, losing a heart or so, and if he gets too close to ANY other player... The plague spreads! That would be interesting most certainly.

Anyways, TL;DR.

Thanks for the positive direction Wyeth, you are right for me to be more constructive.

 

I still like the idea that the archer could be able to crawl through 1 tile spaces.
About the rope arrow maybe it would be a good idea to make one cost 20 coins and be able ot hold 3 of them at once. pressing f to switch between normal and the rope arrows. and if more arrow types come out you can just cycle through with f. defiantly need some kind of bomb arrow but make it more expensive like maybe 50 or 60 coins each, since i could see them being complained about.

 

It was allready stated that the archer can change his arrow type using a Pie menu. They said thats the way you switch between normal and fire arrows, so why not between the zipline?
Btw anyone ever though about a grappling hook? Zelda style? *Checking suggestions* That would be a neat F ability since you can use it again and again (The reason F is used for bombs is because bombs need to be quick, easy to use... putting that in a menu would be very crippling, so if the archer gets a F ability it should be something he uses quickly)

For reference see here or if you got anything to add to the idea:
http://kagforum.com/index.php?threads/zipline.823/
http://kagforum.com/index.php?threads/grappling-hook.835/
http://kagforum.com/index.php?threads/grapple-hook-for-archers.1529/

Taken from here:
http://kagforum.com/index.php?threads/do-not-suggest-these-again.1303/

 

Archers always need good teammates to be fun.
I agree wtih Zefree, they need some as cool features as knights have, not just spamming arrows.

About the arrow menu, it should be the same as builder's block menu, switching between arrows should be fast.

I made a few crappy drawn examples to show the awesomeness there would be:

 

Archer fire arrows are coming. Also someone suggested archers should be able to notch open doors with their arrows.

Personally I think an archer should be able to do cool stuff like double and triple shot. Nets and traps would be nice. It all depends on how much the devs want to put in. ATM they have plenty on their hands already, trying to sort out bugs, put in mechanisms and zombies. But fire arrows are planned don't you worry.

 

Oh and also, bomb arrows could work like this:
-Buy an arrow
-Buy a bomb
-You now have a bomb arrow availiable in your arrow menu!

As simple as that, wouldn't even be overpowered, since the bombs cost a lot, and I assume bomb arrows would have a longer charge time.

Yeah and fire arrows:
-Buy an arrow
-Search and grap a firefly!
-You now have fire arrows :D

Grapple hooks, they could work as Wyeth posted here with a longer range:
http://kagforum.com/index.php?threads/grapple-hook-for-archers.1529/#post-38776

 

Bomb arrows would have to be really affected by gravity. Imagine firing an arrow with a bomb on the end in real life. It would probably flop on the floor nearby or only go a few metres! Since this is a game you can have it less realistic, but it shouldn't go the same distance as normal arrows.

Actually, that's really cool. That means all 3 classes use bombs in some way. Builders can have knights put bombs in their catapults, knights are obvious, and archers have bomb arrows. I think builders should be able to load catapults with bombs themselves, but relying on knights does add nice teamwork.

 

But, if they didn't go the same distance, firing with them would be confusing imo. They aren't already now the easiest class to play (aiming especially, and many don't know they should rely a bit on teammates), this would make it even harder.

 

They would be heavily affected by gravity. Meaning if you can get as high as possible you could still send them past the screen, but it would drop after that. It's only fair considering it's quite a powerful tool!

 

Then maybe it could be used for Skybridges, not going far but landing on top of you. Because I know Neat loves Skybridges.