[265] playing "in the pocket" vs conventional archery duels

I will admit that before I start this that I only recently started playing this game. Also, this is going to be long and probably a bit rambling, so if you don't like to read you should probably stop now.

I had initially thought that archers were useless because the ones I see often just sat in towers opposite of the enemy team's tower full of archers, shooting each other until one or the other died, making little or no impact on the game, other than a small effect on tickets. I usually played as a knight, and once I got past the initial learning curve + when I had bombs, I could easily get 3 or more kills per life, often pushing the enemy team a substantial amount in the process. Meanwhile, I was lucky to get 1:1 ratio with archer trying to duel other archers in towers, and my rate of killing was much, much slower even when i was doing well.

I decided, there must be a fun way to play the archer (for me), so I decided to make an adjustment: play an extremely offensive archer, that generally ignores archery duels, or picking off targets of opportunity, and focuses instead on providing close support to knights. I would be right behind the main line, following knights anywhere they go, in tunnels, the enemy base, you name it. My main target would be anything that was a direct threat to my knights. That means, believe it or not, my primary target was typically enemy knights. I found it to be a really exciting and fascinating playstyle, and also, I felt that I was being really useful too. In fact, archer's become my absolute favorite class to play since making this playstyle adjustment. My knights shield me, and I protect them with my arrows.

my doctrine: stay fast, stay mobile. learn to shoot while moving and jumping. as you advance, make sure you have a route of escape, because you can't win a battle against a good knight 1:1 unless you get lucky or they get greedy. if you need to scale a wall with arrows, those arrows should probably be in place before you need them. outside, you should try to hit the knights that are actively dueling other knights. fully charged shots are not your best form of damage, the best damage you can do is probably to charge to 4 pips (this is the lowest charge that gives you 1 heart of damage). however, charged shots are excellent for stunning knights, which lets ally knights murder them. in corridors, spamming arrows will interrupt charged slashes and hurt people who are jabbing, which usually makes everyone go defensive. this lets your knights finish the job with a charged slash of their own. find a good stout knight or two to stand behind(in the pocket), but don't be afraid to advance out when the situation calls for it. in general, if you are being targeted by an enemy archer, only shoot back if you can't easily find cover or you think it will be an easy kill (e.g. no 5 minute duels).

you might ask, what does an archer do that another knight can't? why not just bring another knight? here's the archer advantage: In a typical knight vs knight scenario at its simplest, the knights can essentially do 3 things: block, jab spam, or charge attack. It works much like a "rock paper scissors" arrangement, where jab spamming will beat someone who tries to charge, charge slash will beat a block, and so forth. if there's an archer spamming low damage arrows into him, the knight is limited to doing one thing: block. If he attempts to jab, he will take damage. if he attempts to charge, his charge will be interrupted and he will take damage. This makes most KvK fights trivial, all your knights have to do is charge slash and win. in such a way, a couple of knights and I have dispatched entire groups of enemy knights when the odds were heavily stacked against us.

I was kind of inspired by an American revolutionary war artillery doctrine. prior to the revolutionary war, artillery batteries frequently engaged in "artillery duels" trying to destroy each other first while ignoring the men of the line engaging in battle. one of the big paradigm shifts that occurred during the revolutionary war was the standard procedure of artillery targeting the enemy's main line instead. the logic is, what good does winning the artillery duel mean if your main line collapses? so, i thought of archers as a kind of "artillery" and the archer vs. archer combat as a kind of "artillery duel."

why bother making this thread? well, i'm kind of concerned, because a lot of people don't play archer, either they don't find it to be very fun, or they find knight and builder to be more fun (obviously). but mainly, when I ask others, i get the same kind of responses. not only is the "archery duel" an acceptable way of playing, it's supposedly the "right" way to play, according to several veterans of the game, and I'm not sure I agree with that. Here's a couple of examples out of the guide posted here in the forums:

• Your first priority is not knights. I know they can stab you to death, but the enemy archer killing your own knights or the builder coming to build bridges over your wall are far more dangerous enemies in the long run. --Auri

• Tunnels are not your friends. If you're going to go fight below ground-level make sure to stock up and stick to areas that allow for long, straight shots. Making a one block deep dip and standing in that dip, gives you a few extra blocks while lobbing. --Auri, cykalu

these are things that basically run directly contrary to everything that I do when I play an archer, and I've heard this sentiment more than once. I mean, think about it logically: how can enemy archers be "dangerous enemies" to your team if all they do is kill your archers? archers have to be doing something else other than killing other archers, or else their impact in the game is quite minimal. anyway, this ended up way longer than I even originally thought it would. being insomniac, tired, and a bit bored, i had half a mind to delete the whole thing, but i decided to just post it and see what you guys thought. go ahead and dig in...

 

Holy crap man you are going to have to slow down, you joined Friday and are posting so much helpful stuff you make the rest of us look bad! :)

Im quite bad at archer, hopefully this will help me out. I have a hard time judging distance/charge/angle. Though admittedly I havent really tried to play archer much.

EDIT: Also playing defensive archer does have its uses as well. IMO both types are needed in a match.

 

Defensive archers are golden if you are getting assaulted,pretty much as defensive builders.

But once the wave is repelled,you should go forward.
I practically always target builders then archers or knights,depending if our knights are dueling,and on opponent archer skill(usually it is the one which can nails you in the first-second shot.)Give these little building spammers a little air and they'll cover your tower in spambridges or even worse - make their own tower!

 

"these are things that basically run directly contrary to everything that I do when I play an archer, and I've heard this sentiment more than once. I mean, think about it logically: how can enemy archers be "dangerous enemies" to your team if all they do is kill your archers? "

Everything but this was awesome.

If you think about it, the archers that fire on knights from the top of a building should be your target even when enemy knights are around. Say you're helping a front-line knight. An enemy knight comes from the door, and an enemy archer is shooting arrows down from the top. The knight next to you is unable to engage the archer on the wall, but he can engage the knight. You can shoot at the archer, so that fits nicely. He takes care of the knight, you take care of the archer. Before you go "B-but wait that's just going back to old habits!" it's only a temporary measure, once you get to a point where that archer that was hampering your knight friend is gone, you can return to attacking the knights he attacks, helping him kill them faster. I am a knight player, and I have to say what i'd definitely prefer you to do in that situation is to shoot the archer that is making me shield constantly, distract him and i'm 99% sure I can take on the knight alone no problem.

From this point, the archer on the wall can do three things. He can carry on targeting the knight, which means he is distracted by that and not necessarily watching where your arrows are going and you may be able to kill him for good. He can target you, in which case, you're distracting him long enough for your friendly knight to murder the knight next to him. Finally, he can run away, which might be the best possible scenario. But as you can see, any of these three is helpful to the both of you and you're likely to come on top.

The only other option I see is dangerous. Granted, if you've been using this strategy for a while, I suspect you and decent knights cut through other knights quickly. You could just ignore the archer on the wall, and go for a really quick battle on the knight. With your help, the knight will have a very easy way of things. But it's dangerous because the archer on the wall can always screw things over in the middle of it. Many a time i've been fully distracted by one or two knights, and despite me quickly finishing them off, if i've taken any damage during the fight, an archer on the wall can use this and shoot me quickly while i'm not looking, taking me out. Since your strategy relies heavily on your friendly knight, this is not a good thing. You'd be forced to retreat for another knight or even killed by new enemy knights coming from the door.

So, i'd say that, in my opinion: target enemy knights always UNLESS an archer is threatening your friendly knight. If the archer is targeting you, you may want to consider targeting him back as well, if the shots make it difficult for you to concentrate on attacking enemy knights. Targeting archers will always be a temporary shift, before you go back to being quite close combat with your knight friends, travelling through tunnels and the like.

Of course, not being much of an archer player, I could be wrong. Hah.

 

the whole concept is based on the fact that archers alone will never be able to defeat an archer:knight combo (they can, with 2 or more linked charged shots, but that rarely happens in regular gameplay). apply maximum pressure to the knight half of the equation, and the archer half will fall into place later. the best possible scenario is that enemy archers are targeting you, and in that case, you should focus on the enemy knights while dodging arrows. if you can dodge long enough for your knight to win, you autowin. if you die but your knight still wins, that's a kind of victory too, since the knight will never die to the lone archer unless he is careless.

the worst case scenario is that the archer is doing the exact same thing as you, which means, given that skill levels are even, the outcome's 50:50 coin flip if everything else is equal.

 

I've seen how effective this assault archer strategy is, and I live in fear of teams that actually use that tactic, but for some reason I've never tried to do this much myself. Now I want to. Great post. :D

 

I personally find taking out knights in cqc easier than in long ranges, since most of them don't shield and try to jab spam the trees which I'm on. If the knight has got a bomb however, you're screwed, unless you manage to have the perfect charging time and stun the knight right before the bomb explodes. (I do kekeke and spam 5)
You would maybe like to meet Contrary, he was very skillful in archer versus knight cqc before the devs hindered that part of archer, however it is still possible with trees.

The target priority is very situational, for an example if there is a builder coming up, who would build a wall, ladder his team over your fort, and claim it theirs, it's much better for your team to kill him even if that meant a death of your knight.
Defensive archers are only needed when you are being heavily assaulted, and having them in that situation means a lot of lost lives to the enemy team. Going out in cqc or even right behind knights at the time would be silly.
However most archers fail to realise, that after the enemy is beaten up, they should move on and support the bumrushing knights. If the archers stay to camp at a tower, their team will have a hard time trying to push the enemy. Those are mostly killwhores or they are afraid to lose their arrows.

I however agree that archer versus archer fights are always sissy fights, did it happen in the woods or did it happen between towers. A knife which wouldn't harm knights, but archers and builders would be cool.

And imho there is no ''right'' way to play archer, you can combine different styles just as knights can (you just have more limited tools), you only need a teammate when you're against multiple enemies.

 

To explain what Monsteri was referring to for about 150 builds or so I always played archer and I always played a highly aggressive archer style engaging knights in cqc by myself. It had a lot of jumping on and over knights to confuse them and mixing stomps in with charge attacks. I wasn't the only one (Monsteri was quite good at this as well I believe) but I was very dedicated to it and very vocal in defense of it.

Anyways I think Carver has been messing with this a lot and while I see the point often times he'd be better off back in his tower firing at knights. True there are a few situations where you would need to be really close to the fight these are rare. You can fire on knights if you think you are safe from enemy archers. The principle behind target archers first is that you can't shoot if you're dead and you're no safer from enemy archers in the frontlines than holed up in your tower. In our clan matches versus BoW, I remember Thiel complaining that every time he'd charge up his sword, Carver would smack him with an arrow. BoW always maintained a constant archer presence and Carver was always up in his tower.

However the biggest point against this is bombs. You didn't mention bombs once in your whole wall of text. If you're that close and an enemy lights his bombs, there is nothing you can do to stop him from killing you. He can just shield bash your knight away for a sec and blow you up no problem.

I understand you wanting to do this to make archer more interesting, to challenge yourself or whatever. I think this is how Carver sees it. But it isn't that effective. And definitively isn't some revolutionary new paradigm-changing epiphany on all of archery.

But well laid out post anyways.

 

I'd still be able to be an aggressive boss archer if stun didn't work so damn well when you fall from heights. The radius for slashes is just too damn far for falling down lower from trees. Jumping around can only get me at most about 4-5 kills before i die from the stun fall then rape. It also depends if I want to actually play well or just try to suicide attack over and over fustrating people.

 

As a newer player myself this is a strategy that I found somewhat helpful. It generally seems to be at its best during the initial push to capture the hill or whatever landmark dominates the middle of the map. Its usefulness generally falls flat after that due to bombs. Bombs, as Contrary pointed out, will kill supporting archers so easily that they will just lose their respective team tics instead of doing anything helpful.

You can still be a supportive offensive archer by charge arrow spamming enemy knight formations from a distance, this will allow you to assist while still being relatively safe from any explosive that would otherwise claim your life. This is what most offensive archers end up doing as soon as bombs become readily available. I myself generally end up in this role while playing archer.

On a side note,Knights, remember to stand up for your supporting archers buddies! Due to this game's lack of an assist system I've seen archers with rather mediocre K/d ratio and score be banned despite the fact they were helping a great deal on the front lines by breaking enemy guards and suppressing enemy forces. Speak up, and let the rest of the game know how helpful these guys have been!

 

Interesting discussion. I prefer to get aggressive, no matter what I'm playing-- I'd rather be up in the enemies' grill causing havoc. One of the things I've really been enjoying about King Arthur's Gold is how situational it is. If you are playing a capture the flag match with unlimited respawns-- then you can really take some daring chances. If you're out of respawns and are the last player on your team standing--then it's normally best to play conservatively. Differences in play style and skill will make some tactics better or worse for dealing with different types of enemy players...
So ultimately, I think, playing any class has its moments where you have to change your plans and adapt to the situation. It's difficult to come up with too many hard-and-fast rules, and that my friends makes for a very interesting game!

 

Perhaps it's playing in organised clan matches makes this harder, but I've certainly had plenty of success doing this. Your right the odd bomb will completely own you, and the lack of cover can make you an easy target for archers sometimes, but when I've done it the amount of kills I rack up, not to mention the large amount of assists I get, usually well outweigh the amount of deaths I come across playing that way. Bombs in particular are very potent but, but alot of the time you can get away because the enemy knight can't cook their bomb long enough due to constant pressure from knights and archer fire.

However, what wasn't mentioned before, when there is the terrain for knights to cook bombs without long range hassle from archers, I tend to drop deep and fire from distance until there's a bit less danger, obviously it's not always easy to judge, but if there's a load of knights defending a tower with a bomb shop then you'd know to stay back for example, but just any sort of situation that offers enemy knights loads you should sit back and fire high angle shots at the area.

 

you know, the bombs are obviously a problem. i have no problem admitting that. i think i die more to bombs than anything else. i really wish that ally knights could shield you from bombs.

with that said, using an aggressive strategy like this is all about feeling the pulse of the game. sometimes you need to retreat, e.g. when momentum shifts and you have knights or archers targeting you, or there's an impending rain of bombs. that's why i stated that you should mentally map out your escape route before you are actually fighting. it's a good idea to look for places that help you avoid bombs too, before you need them.

i still feel like i get more kills doing something like this than sitting in a tower taking potshots. my deaths are higher too, but i have never been overly concerned about deaths, as long as i am killing significantly more than i am dying (and there is a handy arrow shop!).

 

Also your KDR isn't really important, what's important is your improving your team's overall KDR, or preferably getting such an effective attack going that you can actually pin your enemy to their base, siege it, and for once capture the fucking flag :P

 

I agree that archer duels are ridiculous, but that doesn't mean one should resort to shooting from the back of a knight. The undeniable problem with being such an offensive archer is that you simply don't have a shield. There are not many archers that like to keep close to the action, but whenever I find one I just time a bomb to explode under them and then face the enemy knights without complications. Moreover, by showing themselves in my screen I am prepared to block beforehand, thus they lose that first sniper shot to the unaware knight.

It's about that feeling of "OWW, F***!" when you suddenly find yourself, as a builder or archer, in front of a bomb with less than a second left. You can't go forward. You can't go backwards. You can't jump. You can't block. You wish you had stayed back, but now it's too late... Not that bombs are the only horror of archers, being caught in a dead end tunnel is also a recurrent "knightmare".

Archers are just not supposed to be close to the action - they lose their main advantage and magnify their weaknesses. Though that does not mean I find any fun in archer duels, in which one spends half an hour just to hit/get hit before the wounded archer heals up, and it starts again... sometimes it is more useful (and even faster in the long run) to dig a whole tunnel to avoid fire than to engage in a "duel".
My oppinion, in summary, is that archers should help knights all the time, but keeping a reasonable distance form the action.

 

That's the thing though, playing offensively doesn't necessitate that you have to be within 10 foot of a knight at all times, it's very much about reading the situation and dropping back when that threat emerges. There's plenty of times I've played this way, and while you are playing a very attacking roles, I'm very conservative when it comes to certain situations that are a bit risky, i.e. tunnels like you mentioned. I personally have no problem playing offensively and getting a decent KDR or at least making a noticeable improvement to the knights I'm supporting's KDR.

 

Ok... I tried this... within 5 minutes everyone in the GODDAMN Game had gone Archer and you couldnt take a step withou being hit by several arrows so... everyone went into the tower and started to have 6 vs 6 archer duel and I came *this*close to greifing our tower... sigh... that was bloody annoying... I don't think I'll be doing it again.