1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hey Guest, is it this your first time on the forums?

    Visit the Beginner's Box

    Introduce yourself, read some of the ins and outs of the community, access to useful links and information.

    Dismiss Notice

[548] Attack timer reset discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Raron, Nov 1, 2012.


Should the attack timer reset upon being hit be brought back?

  1. Yes, there should be a var and it should be by default on in KAG.

  2. Yes, there should be a var but it should not be by default on in KAG.

  3. No, there should not be a var and it should not be a default in KAG.

  1. Raron

    Raron KAG Guard Tester

    Hear all out ladies and gentlemen.

    Your opinion is needed.
    As you all should know in the last build (build 548) there was a small change which effected and changed knight combat (a lot). This is:

    -fixed attack timer reset upon getting hurt

    For me this breaks the game greatly. But what does that mean?

    Basicly when you stab somebody his attack timer will not reset. Before 548 while you were charging a slash if you got hurt the charge would reset and start over. Now the charge continues when you take damage.
    Note: how my charge didnt stop after I got stabbed by the Henry.

    Due to following reasons I’m for bringing back the attack timer reset:

    -Slash has been given too much of a boost. Basically slash can’t be stopped with anything

    -Gives the players with lower ping a advantage since they can slash faster (Yes I know it’s a rather small advantage)

    -Makes it impossible for players to block a slash (since double slash = break shield and damages the player)

    -Slash timer reset on hit gives laggy players a fighting chance since they can jab the less laggy enemy and stop his jab/slash. Now basically a enemy with a lower ping rapes you since you can’t counter his slash and he can charge it faster.

    -Stuff is just weird since you can jab a enemy and he slashes you back. That creates a ton of “wtf” moments.

    -Basically multiple enemies have more slash/jab power and you can’t do a freaking thing about it (since you have no chance to counter-strike)

    -Doors have taken gotten a nerf since it’s not so simple anymore to just go outside slash enemies stunning them and driving them back (NOTE: This is good and bad at the same time so I’m putting it in both places)

    -The learning curve for kag is lowered in a bad way. Since new players will see that slashes damage the enemy they will think it’s a play2win tactic and will just do it (Yes im going under a assumption that the new player is not adaptable)

    -It feels good when you stop somebody’s slash with a jab (Yes I said it, but you all know its true)

    Though I see that having no timer has its advantages:

    -Due to kag being laggy when you have a timer you have to take in account 100% syncing without a slash timer, so there are also some slash moment when a enemy with a lower ping jabs a player with a higher one and cancels his slash and the enemy didn’t even register that due to synch issues.

    -Doors have taken gotten a nerf since its not so simple anymore to just go outside slash enemies stunning them and driving them back (NOTE: This is good and bad at the same time so I’m putting it in both places)

    -Gives a small nerf to archers since arrows also reset a jab/slash (this is for not full charged arrows)

    -Its more simpler code (or at least I’ve been told so)

    -Jab spams have a “even” mode now since before you could win a jab war with pure luck and take no damage from the enemy

    Post your thoughts about the change here and please answer to the question in the poll.
    MINIMAN and allknowingfrog like this.
  2. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Just saying, after testing with Exid today, the fix didn't work or wasn't committed properly, the timer behaviour has been unchanged for the last 300 builds or so. -> My view of this being 100% overblown is more or less confirmed.

    How we tested: one charged a slash, the other jabbed them halfway through charging; this caused the timer to reset. Tested on soulrealm's aus RTDM server.

    As for various points:

    This is false, slash timer reset on hit makes no difference for laggy players because their attacks get applied later -> they can not reset someone's attacks because they are hit first -> their attack gets reset so they die faster from all attacks. Timer reset helps give laggy players a fighting chance.

    This just implies you are a bad knight - if there are multiple enemies, you can still stomp to stun/hurt/shieldbreak any number of them which can be combined with general melee, bomb/bomb jump, slash and double slash them (which can net damage to multiple enemies), all manner of things.
    The fact that good knights (a group I'm not sure I'd consider you in, because I haven't been able to play with you without lag) can more or less reliably win 1v2 up to 1v5 (and higher in the case of some elites, and especially versus scrub knights, up to 1v8 or so seems the ceiling in public servers, lower in RTDM (where there is more likely to be good players + closer bunching of teams)) implies that you can do something about it, and if you cant do it, then that's your problem. Yes, if you're versus 3 good knights who know what they're doing, they'll own you, because you dont have any team-mates that know what they're doing. That's how skill balances out - it doesn't make sense for you to be able to win literally every 2v1 or 4v1 you go into because if there's a knight in there that's as good as you, or you catch an unlucky slash, then you're boned. That's just how the game works - I'm sorry that you cant win every round, but that's not my failing.

    The fact that the behaviour hasn't actually changed (see testing above), and you've been operating on the assumption that it has, means you are overblowing this far more than it is worth.
    soulrealm, FG, GloriousToast and 4 others like this.
  3. Squeal

    Squeal Shipwright

    I thought I noticed a difference, but then again my ping has been worse lately. All I can say is that it's a key mechanic and I don't see any reason to remove the timer reset. I haven't done any proper testing so I can't really comment on the change, or if it even occurred.
  4. Raron

    Raron KAG Guard Tester

    Lets get this discussion on fire!
    As Geti mentioned to me later on in IRC after more testing seem that this timer reset sometimes work and sometimes does not (basically more random stuff in KAG).

    I meant that as in terms that less laggy players can more easily charge a slash (due to fact that the visual timer is a bit false for laggy players). The attack timer reset per hit would reduce slash power and give a bit of advantage to the laggy players, since currently slash2win is the tactic against laggy ones.

    (My mistake. Its same as -Slash has been given too much of a boost.)

    That is false.
    You have to have something quick to counter a slash. For stund you have to charge your slash which is tricky and not-so-fast. Hurting due to this has no freaking effect. And how are you gona slash/shieldbreak if there is a default configuration (since shieldbash is off by default and its buggyness is a new story). Basically without a attack timer reset on hit I have nothing to counter a double slash exept maybe a faster slash. Even if that was true having more tactics is better gameplay wise.

    You may live...
    For now.
  5. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Stomps are very quick and damage due to them stuns, resetting any timers and cancelling any jabs that are about to happen; getting double slashed is not the end of the world unless you don't have your shield up; you can outrun someone attempting to slash you easily (see: any 1v1 knight combat, lots of getting out of the way of slashes until someone fails and gets cut), bombs are incredibly effective against anyone who's attacking a lot because they get locked into the attack and cannot put up their shield, etc, etc. I wonder sometimes if we're even playing the same game.

    I do not see it as a key mechanic unless your idea of knight combat is jab spam < slashing < timed jabs as an ABSOLUTE RULE. Either way, the line is blurry.
  6. Raron

    Raron KAG Guard Tester

    I decided to kick stomps in first post since for them you need a bit of higher ground to be useful (slash-jump from 4 blocks). They simply can not be used at open ground and in every single moment (unlike jab or slash and I like it that way).

    I see knight combat for far more then simply that. You have stomps (yes I know what I said above), shielding, vaulting and of course running around to try to make your enemy mistake along with random bugs or for simply flanking him and stabing him in the back. This all breaks by having the no timer attack reset since you overpower the slash and it beats all of the above (exept stomps for which you need higher ground).

    And I always count bombs as a secret knights ace so I almost never mention it in a swordfighting thread. I agree that bombs spice things a bit and make this a lot more complex but you do not always have one with you for every single knight battle.

    Please stop using my IRC quotes against me :>:(:
  7. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    >Implying the game should not be looked at holistically or that 1v1 on flat ground should be a focus of this discussion

    >Implying slashes are somehow instakill (You have a shield for a reason)
    > Implying 1v1 combat should be a focus

    > Implying the game should not be looked at holistically
    > Implying bombs aren't a huge part of knight combat

    >Implying you invented a cliche.

    Cmon man you're better than this.

    This isn't just a "swordfighting thread" since you've suggested that somehow removing the attack timer reset would break all of knight combat and make slashes 100% overpowered. I'm not denying that it's a buff to slashes, but it's also a buff to jabs with any ping difference as well - if the timer reset is there, then out of 2 people jabbing each other, the lower ping one will hit, and the other person's jab will be cancelled (giving an implied "clash" but with one person also doing damage).

    1v1 knight combat is not the focus of KAG nor will it ever be. Being someone who can win a 1v1 does not make you someone who's a good team player, who can use team units and enemy knights to their advantage. KAG is primarily a team game consisting of many micro-skirmishes, and that is not affected by the attack timer resetting or not resetting.

    Literally the only thing this changes is a knights ability to stunlock an enemy with jabs. You can still stun with slashes. You can still stun with jumps. You can still stun with bombs. None of those things can stunlock someone, but the timer reset effectively stunlocks someone until they shield even though their attack animation is still playing, which is not clear, or fun.

    You are implying that this ability to stunlock is somehow crucial to knight combat being any fun, when as far as I'm aware, the consensus is that getting stunnlocked sucks, having your attack animation play but the enemy not give a fuck and hurt you instead sucks, and generally having your intentions not carry over into the game because of an obtuse mechanic sucks.
    Kouji and BeasterDenBeast like this.
  8. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Everything else sounds great, Geti, but I'm just wondering if you could explain to your adoring public why this particular item is a good thing? Playing with bad ping is annoying enough at the best of times without having one-way-clashes to deal with. :huh?:

    Unless I'm reading you wrong?
  9. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    You are - if the timer reset is there (the thing Raron wants and the thing I dont want) then there are one way clashes. Without it, there are not one way clashes.
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  10. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    I don't really understand how this would affect the power of slashing. Why would you be in range of a jab in the first place? Us pro knights always start a slash out of range, and then move into range when we can unleash the slash. So jabbing is not a threat.
  11. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Next-time I hear you complaining about jab-spam, One, I'll quote you to yourself. :p
    Antman likes this.
  12. Raron

    Raron KAG Guard Tester

    I am well aware of that. Then the most adaptable knight should win. The thing you describe only happens at jab spam and when nobody from eather side shields. Even if your then cornered with 1 heart you can make a comeback or you can run away jumping around him and stuff (ok you can do that even now). If your the first one to take a hit, calm down and try again. If your the laggy one even better. When you see a attack animation of the enemy (and you have your shield) you already know that the attack is over and you can jab him back. If you have a lower ping you will see the animation sooner and know when to jab. Its all about knowing your ping. Its much better (by my opinion) then the current battle tactics.

    I never said that it is. I am simply minimizing it to 1vs1 part since its most simple to see it there. The timer reset upon hit is a bit less seen in massive battles, but it still has a big influence.

    Yes, but you can not use those at any given time. As already stated you can use not always use bombs and jumps. Slashing is like fighting fire with fire, if the enemy starts charging your doomed. Having jabs to stop the enemy attack (not stunlock since that would mean they can not jump/dodge/shield next jab/move around). It is not also clear how you and your enemy keep on cutting eachother in pieces. As for that you have taken a damge...

    Since that tactic is used to enter a combat and can not be stopped by a jab due to his short range, entering with a slash in combat has not/will not change. Though what do you do when the enemy survives and strikes back and his in close range?
    You could charge a slash and win the match.The enemy can not stop you with anything since he was stunned and you got 0.01 sec (yes a random number <.<) of advantage so he can not beat your slash.

    That is the problem since currently slashing without a timer reset upon hit overpowers the slash so its slash2win (as already stated in this thread). There needs to be a way for your enemy to make a comeback without bombs. Timer reset per hit changes jab combat (that is the jab combat adapts) but reduces the power of a slash.

    With the attack timer reset upon hit you can still do that but its a bit harder. You have to make a golden middle where your still in range that you can hit him with a slash but not in range of his jab. The enemy still has a chance to defeat you even if his wounded. (General combat here, nothing personal against you ;) )

    Also is it me or are me and Geti just repeating ourselfs?
  13. GloriousToast

    GloriousToast Haxor Donator

    This argument is wonderful.
    @raron Why are you trying to remove something that isn't 100 % working?
    I am against the idea to remove it as i can see that it helps with things like this.
  14. Exid

    Exid Shark Slayer

    I find it amusing how I have been annoying Geti constantly that slashes are generally broken and underpowered in knight combat and yet I find someone complaining how it's overpowered and unskillful.

    Slashes cant be blocked by anything is a bit of a laugh too, If you wanted to see unblockable slashes go play build 394, you could die from a double slash while shielding.
    In this build slashes are easily stopped by a shield and a double slash can even be blocked because of the recovery time from a stun is very quick and you can even recover in midair without much trouble.

    Slashes are very fickle, sometimes it fails to do damage, stun or push people and other times it hits a enemy player dead on.
    Movement also effects slashes in weird ways like jumping and slashing so it hits enemy diagonally making it have more contact to a shielding knight or standing still and slashing, other movements make them weak hitting and damage failing.

    So I don't know how you think they are powerful, in fact they are just as broken as any other mechanic.

    The amount of time it takes to slash is long enough to get three jabs in and the slash even slows the knight down so it completely makes the slashing knight vulnerable, you can also jab while the enemy knight is doing a double slash.

    Basically you just have to stick your neck out from your shield and charge the slash, I have been surprised so many times by people just running up to my slash and just jab spamming so I die trying to continue the slash or it forces me to play defensive.
    This worked even in the test build against people, were the fixed timer didn't restart from damage. You can still do it on Henry :D

    New players using slashes are still nubs, you can avoid it very easily or charge it as I said before, the only time nubs using slashes become dangerous is when they are in groups and the thing about group combat is that everything is deadly so I don't see how slashes are a winning tactic for nubs.

    I think I could write up a lot more but It's already a wall of text.
    Point out if I have made any mistakes.
    thebonesauce likes this.
  15. Raron

    Raron KAG Guard Tester

    Among other things im trying to remove it becouse it is not 100% working. Tottaly random stuff is something kag does currently need.

    Edit: Oh wait...A link? Ah yea Im also against it related to arrows but sadly its connected. Knight combat suffers far worse blow then knight-archer does. If it is possible to make it jab-clash only im for it ( I do belive that is already said in first post).

    If I recall correctly that was due to you hitting the wall close to you and bumping back to the enemy slash.

    Yes, the time to charge 1 slash is more or less same as 3 jabs but that does not change a thing. It takes time to get in a persons range and to jab him once (till this about 2/3 slashing knights charge should be full). You can then jab him second time but in return he will double slash and kill you. If you just jab him once and shield your still gona be in his range so he can double slash you, break your shield and give you 1.5 heart damage. So I do not see how jabs rival slashes in any kind of combat situation (Yes I have tested this stuff). Only way you can lose is that you start charging your slash when the enemy starts to jab right next to you.

    They are since you have nothing to counter it. Yes old players will still time/evade slashes better and defeat the new players but it generaly breaks the combat. Who ever uses jabs (timed or just spam) loses. Currently jabs are only good for boosting damage at stomps.
  16. however, each of yous have your points, the normal player wouldnt be bothered reading these walls of texts, make it more concise> we'll read it (i read them)

    me? I reckon a jab shouldn't be like that (even though it'll be worse for me if this get reverted).
  17. Exid

    Exid Shark Slayer

    Slashes just ignored shields and double slashes could just go through you like butter, it didn't have to bounce off anything it just happened.

    If I was in the situation where the knight was 2/3 charged I would just back off, shield and try to block or make his slash miss me. Now if I manage to block it he could damage me with the double slash if it manages to connect and go through the fast recovery rate that knight shields has from stuns. And If he misses the slash I could make him pay for it with a lot of jabs or a slash that he would have problems dealing with.

    Charging against a slash when the difference between you and the slasher is five blocks is foolish, but if you were three to one blocks you could get about two hearts and shield against his double slash and even if the second slash hits you did more damage then him, the chance of doing enough hearts to kill him/her are high too.

    Jabs are stupidly powerful if you use them in the right way, time them perfectly and use the correct movements and you can do a lot of damage and even take on whole hordes of knights. So they do have the power to rival a jab in fact they completely overwhelm it most of the times.

    This game is full of risk, chance, tactics, time, luck, lag and glitches I will be very surprised if you managed to get the same result perfectly every time on the mechanics of knight combat from testing.

    New players shield more then anything so that's one counter, groups, height advantage, healing shops and other stuff.

    Generally breaks the combat, that's amusing that you find that stopping a slash makes the game slower in a bad way, In fact it stops people from blindly running into a enemy and wasting lives, it makes shielded knights vulnerable for a second allowing others to do damage, It can smash through a group of knights and it can stop them too but only if used correctly. It can slash a a person going to slash or slash a person who failed to slash a target.
    And all of the above can be done by anyone.

    In a 1vs1 Slashes might be a bit overpowered in certain circumstances but that's the same as everything else.
    But in group fights jab spamming becomes ridiculous because if you fail to attack first you have to defend and attacking back is as hard as hell when they are jabbing.

    The reason why charge removal from damage worked in older builds was because bashing, we no longer have that ability.
    Ej likes this.
  18. Kyzak

    Kyzak Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Raron, I feel like you're arguing for a lost cause; on top of being vehemently opinionated-"okay yes, but that *doesn't change anything*"--, the only one voicing any real concern over the issue is you. Knight combat is anything but solid at the moment, and for me this feels like a step in the right direction; if you really believe it's so terrible, others are bound to notice *when it's actually released*, and they'll start complaining too. For now, perhaps we should just be grateful knight combat is getting some attention.
  19. GloriousToast

    GloriousToast Haxor Donator

    and yet the majority of the votes in the poll above say it should be returned as a variable and turned on too.
  20. Exid

    Exid Shark Slayer

    Seventeen people have voted so far (I haven't) Most people don't bother with voting or even bother to look at the poll.
    If the last two votes stay the same as they are now and the first one increases over a few days then the devs might do something about it (they don't really want to change the combat mechanics right now) and people like me will think you're morons.