Bobotype's effectiveness rework of the Archer

I really want to see the Archer played more, and able to be played effectively at base level with just as much skill required as Builder and Knight, without having to xX360nograpplestompXx, but also without being ULTRA DETH SNIPARS that can negate Knights entirely from range. Archers should be defending towers against Knights, rather than being forced into close range, but they never get the chance because Shield+bomb combo is OP.

Therefore I propose: [note that these ideas will not work separately and need to be kept together to make sense, as a whole]

>25, yes that's twenty-five, arrows per bundle at an increased cost of 25 Gold per bundle, capping Arrows at 100 maximum in backpack.
This suggestion is to quell arrow spam, or at least make Archers need to search for more arrows at some point in their lifetime.

>Ability of Archers' fully charged [2.x seconds] arrows to penetrate a Knight's Shield and deal 0.5 hearts of damage. This doesn't turn the Archer into a Supah Snoipah, but definitely allows for annoying Knights from the top of defences they're trying to break. The previous arrow reduction, as stated, will decrease spamming of fully charged arrows. THIS SHIELD PENETRATION DOES NOT INCLUDE TRISHOT ARROWS AND THEY WILL NOT PENETRATE SHIELDS, they'll just do their stun like they do now.
This makes the Archer able to kill a shielded Knight in 16 seconds with 8 perfectly aimed shots.

>Removal of the ability to fire shield-piercing shots while grappled; taking into account the shield-piercing shot and potential abuse by Archers grappling onto unreachable overhangs and poking Knights to death

>A melee punch, not some bullshit backstab knife but just a 0.5 punch with a slower swing speed than the Builder's pick, would also be really nice if it could damage dirt, structures, players, one way platforms, ladders and wooden doors.

>Minor nerf to the Water Arrow's wetting area.

>Lockpick: Comes in stacks of 4, when used on an enemy door tile holds it open until an enemy passes through it. Wood Door tiles take 1 pick per door tile, Stone Doors take 2 picks per tile. Lockpicks cost 30 Gold per stack.

>Slight decrease in speed that the Grapple can re-fire, adding 1 second interval inbetween every new throw.

>Ability for Arrows to damage one-way platforms.

This should hopefully make Archers more useful to teams in a building defense or infiltration role, and thus hopefully played more and achieving a higher KDR by hunting down low-health Knights on the run.

EDIT//@UP: If you would like to continue discussion on this suggestions, please make it so here

 

1. Pointless
2. Bad if legolas is still in (At this point we don't need more ways to rek knight shields, the removal of arrow slashing had a huge impact on knight v archer balance already, still not sure if it was for the best)
3. Bad (Ruins high level mobility)
4. Bad (would be nice to be able to break ladders and shit, though..)
5. Bad (water arrows already got nerfed),
6. Bad (We have bomb and fire arrows...)
7. Pointless
8. Bad (would ruin platform defenses).

 

1: Not pointless, as I said if Archers get a buff then there will be endless complaint about the sudden arrow spam.
2:Like I said, legolas shot wouldn't be powerful enough to penetrate shields, just a fully charged shot.
3:Archers accomplish very little for the team jumping around Knights in circles trying to score a kill, they waste a lot of time and as lot of arrows in this way. On top of that, being expected to jump around 360noscoping really sets the skill level too high for the average archer. High level mobility is still possible, it just makes you more reliant on DEFENSES, which is where an Archer should be rather than jumping around on flat land.
4:You actually gave no reason for this being bad at all, you just said "Bad". An Archer is the only class with literally no options except the very risky grapplestomp if left without arrows. Actually tell me what could be bad about a piss weak melee attack that allows the Archer to escape a trap any other class could easily break?
5:People still complain about their stun length, a little off couldn't hurt.
6:And the Builder has many options, while the Knight has mines, Bombs, water bombs and Kegs. The Archer needs to bring another unique function to the table rather than more Arrow variants.
7:Once again, no reason given. It was actually because currently an Archer can scale a wall of any size, even with good overhangs, and there are still a lot of [justified] complaints from Builders about Archers being able to get into any base regardless of most security measures.
8:That's the point, so that if you bring along an Archer to hold off the enemy Archer they actually have a chance at damaging the defender's platform shield.

 

> joined forums yesterday
> bickering about archer balance
> against the undisputed most competent archer
> also demonstrating lack of understanding of archer mechanics
> and game balance
> dafuq

 

Yet he didn't give any reasons for half the points other than saying "bad". For someone purportedly knowledgable, I would expect more. I don't see you giving reasons either or being constructive, just dropping words that have no meaning to the ideas being discussed.
I do know archer mechanics and I can tell you the game isn't balanced atm; as for "bickering", I'm not looking for a fight, just for Archer to be more viable.

If in 2 he was talking about point 2 being bad without Legolas being removed, I would honestly trade off Legolas shots for the ability to even scratch a Knight, although it would likely be more boring. But I don't see why the Archer can't have both. Like I said, the overcharged shots wouldn't pierce shield, just fully charged shots.

 

Okay, fine. I'll go into more depth.

The reason that taking 5 arrows off of a stack and upping their cost is pointless, is that;

• You can get free arrows through resupply, thus nobody would buy arrows that cost as much as special ammo.
• 5 arrows makes little to no difference, the real problem with spam is the amount of arrows that get left lying around. Their decay rate is too low, and a stack of thirty arrows only degrades one arrow at a time over a very long period.

While the 0.5 heart damage through shields would be nice, with the removal of arrow slashing, the combat balance is already pretty wobbly. I want to let things settle and see how players cope with the current changes, before giving archers even more combat-related buffs is even considered.

Mastery of the grapple is one of the biggest lines between an average archer, and a skilled archer. One of my main tactics is to evade knights by grappling, while charging half-shots and firing at them. I can do this fast enough to shoot arrows without breaking my grapple rhythm. Making it so it's impossible to draw a bow while grappled would basically render the grapple useless in combat, and with all of the knight's mobility, playing archer would be pointless.

TBH, I don't know what to think about having a melee attack. My biggest issue is that, what would you bind it to by default? Spacebar? It just seems a little weird. Running out of arrows is rarely an issue, as so many get strewn about the battlefield. Also, it's kind of nice to have to rely on other classes to accomplish certain tasks.

As for water arrows, in a recent patch, they now do not stun knights who are shielding, unless a direct hit takes place. This doesn't even take into account blocking direction, either. While a minor reduction to their splash radius wouldn't be too big of a deal... Actually, the more I think about it, I wouldn't mind that change.

My reason for no lockpicks, is that this isn't terraria. We don't need bloat items, or mechanics that exist for basically no reason. There's enough legit (and not-so-much) ways of getting through doors already.

Again, grapple nerfs don't just affect building climbing, they affect archer v. knight combat, this one would make it significantly harder to evade bombs... Not to mention, spikes now stun enemies, this means that it takes a fair degree of skill to grapple over some well-built towers. Archers also have the least potential to mess your base up, if they get over your wall. (So long as your base isn't made entirely of wood...)

As for arrows damaging wood platforms, I don't think they should damage any block. It's what special ammo is for, and it's what other classes are for. They already slightly damage trap blocks (which I think is a bit weird...). My main gripe with wood platforms is that sometimes they decide they don't feel like spreading fire.

TL;DR: The only thing out of this list that I could see being in the game, is the water arrow nerf.

 

Okay, in that case I'll definitely agree with you on not upping the cost. But 25 arrows would bring Archers that little bit closer to having to think about getting more arrows sooner rather than later.

0.5 damage through shields is far less a combat thing anyway rather than a serious harassment thing. I've seen people state that the Archer is good 1v1 against the Knight because he is able to "harass" him, and thus needs no further power. Giving this to the Archer would not be giving anything huge at all. I can understand you don't want an OP archer like in the old times, a concern I'm sure the devs share, but it's ridiculous to think that the Archer is close to overpowered in the current form. Arrow slashing being lost is not a huge balance tipper when shields are still impenetrable, even from angles they shouldn't be.

As to you saying "Making it so it's impossible to draw a bow while grappled would basically render the grapple useless in combat, and with all of the knight's mobility, playing archer would be pointless": I do agree to some extent, so let me change the idea [I'll edit it in the OP as well] to "cannot fire shield-piercing shots while grappled".

I'll tell you what's not "kind of nice", is being unable to pass by Dirt or vicious one-way platform traps as the Archer.
I was thinking it would make sense if Archers can only penetrate Dirt and some wood related utility blocks with basic kit, Knights could destroy Wood and wood utilities with basic kit and Builders could destroy everything except Bedrock with basic kit. It goes up in tiers- can break dirt, can break wood, can break stone. It's just frustrating playing as Archer and being prevented from back-capping [another supposed advantage to the Archer] by one flimsy piece of terrain. As to binding a melee to a key, I was sort of like "maybe... bind... it... to... RMB, Move... grapple... to... Space?" but I suppose that would be too radical for most players.

We know this isn't Terraria and as for saying "no bloat mechanics", there are many Builder workbench items like the Bucket that often go unused already; Bloat items aren't a huge problem in this game because there are a few around already and you don't see them negatively effecting gameplay. The point isn't just getting through doors, it's about the ARCHER getting through doors unassisted, as well as being able to call on the Archer when you need a door opened fast.

I see your point on grapple climbing well built towers, but we don't need grapple to fire more than once per second to escape an incoming Bomb. If a tower has a good, well planned overhang built in, an Archer really shouldn't be passing that.

It is damn weird that arrows damage stone-based trap blocks, a feature we should gladly swap for them being able to damage thin wooden tiles.

I don't see, man, how the only thing you can really agree with out of this is actually a nerf to the least played class, but you've definitely changed my mind on asking to up ammo cost or remove arrow firing while grappled though, so thank you for your more informative reasons.

 

well, i didnt read all of the last 2 comments, but all in all those suggestions sound very nice to me. well, maybe because i play archer all the time, and i just go knight in emergencys, but that with the armorpenetration is really very good, because if u think how much this knightmobillity is and etc... i dont think that removing the arrowslashing does it all, i still think that archers have a very bad chance in a 1 vs 1, because their only really chance, to get a knight is, if u get him near, load your tripple shot and shoot him, but, this does 2 hearts dmg ( if he shields) and so u have to do that 2 times. in my opinion, to get a knight with single shots is really difficult, because most of the time he will shield, and if u charge a single shot, he can charge his slash , and when he slashes, he can automaticly dash a little bit to u ( and ofcourse the knights slash hitboxes are very big too, so thats what u guys understand to melee fighters...), and thats it mostly, and now dont say me that grappling hook would help. and i really know that u guys always say... yea.. archer is support, but who wants to play a support?? really, if u have some time to play, in my opinion you dont support your mates.. you want to do some cool thinkgs at your own, and that mostly just possible if u go knight and bombjump over the walls and... yea.. as archer, you can grapple over the walls ofcourse, but as usual, a knight is waiting for you, and you dont really have a chance if you hang at a wall, and a knight is jumping with a loaded slash on your head from above.. so i really think that those suggestions are very useful.. but,.. yea, i know that i cant change the opinions of you knight pro players..

 

Okay, I like Archers, but some of the suggestions here are probably the worst suggestions I've ever read on these forums.

Honestly... You think that implementing lockpicks, nerfing Archers' mobility (the best thing about them), and making it harder for them to get their hands on their ammunition (their only effective weapon) will make them more fun nto play? You want to avoid

but at the same time you think giving Archers a guaranteed 0.5 damage through shields is a good idea?

No. To all of it. Just... no.

 

Aw ye man, archer pride. And yes, playing it in its current incarnation isn't as fun as it could be, nobody wants to play a pure support [no KDR means no reward for your efforts, and rewards even in numerical values for work done is what gets players motivated].

No, it most likely isn't the worst ideas you've ever read here,e especially seeing as when considered all together they would only be minor changes. Stop being overly dramatic. You gave no reason as to why lockpicks would be bad, Grappling would only be once per second which is in no way a huge loss unless you want to be able to grapple past an overhang.
You also didn't read the melee section at all when you said only effective weapon because the idea is suggesting that they'd have a backup, and 25 gold is not prohibitive if you're actually getting gold because you can get kills on your own.
AND ONCE AGAIN YOU DIDN'T READ when you took "poking Knights to death" out of context, because "poking Knights to death" was in the context of Archers with a shield pierce being able to grapple to an unreachable floaty island and hurt Knights with no threat to themselves. I was encouraging poking Knights to death, but only from purposely made defences and not without risk, and you ignored that.
Finally, you actually negated your own entire post by criticising me for nerfing the Archer and then criticising me for buffing the Archer.
LEARN TO READ brah

Lots of people care about K/D, that little numerical counter is a motivator for players to show off their skill. Firing a water arrow into a group of Knights so that your own Knights can take them out is not an indicator of an Archer's skill or contribution, and is not rewarded or acknowledged for the Archer in any way.

It wouldn't be a faceful of arrows with your Shield up, it would be one arrow per 2.x seconds, something you can indeed dodge. If it's such a problem to you, maybe you can stop playing Knight for a couple seconds.

Archers are weaker, and I can understand the fun feeling of getting kills as a weaker class or with an underpowered weapon, but when it leads to the entire class being played less and enjoyed less as a result then it's probably a bad idea. If Archers are sending down a hail of arrows from the walls that don't even affect the Knight below, their team as a whole is losing out by having Archers on the team. That isn't right.

We already have strong ammo types in the special arrows; standard arrows just need to be weak but not basically useless..

 

Okay, I usually stay out of the archer arguments, but this caught my eye.
I do not think kag should be a place for "players to show off their skill"
you want to show off, go play some other game, like cod or whatever. (No hate, it's just a relevant example.)
kag should be a place where archers, knights and builders all work together towards a common goal. I have no problem with some people being better than others. That is a part of kag too, and I respect you if you are good. But if you are good, you can still work with your team.

and secondly, "Firing a water arrow into a group of Knights so that your own Knights can take them out is not an indicator of an Archer's skill or contribution."
This is so wrong; I don't know where to start.
ug...
right.
first of all, just because red text didn't appear over your head, DOES NOT mean you didn't contribute to the game. An archer shooting a water arrow at a group of knights so that your knights can kill them is a supurb act of teamwork. In my opinion, those few kills are better that any solo killstreak.

Second, what is wrong with being suppourt? You suggested arows that peirce sheilds. When I play archer, I don't need sheild peircing arrows. All the knights I face lower their sheild for me. They lower it so they can attack a knight.

THAT is when I open fire.

You don't like how the archer is played? Instead of trying to change the archer, adapt to the playstyle. Other people have figured out how to use they archer to its full capabilities. I suggest you listen to them.

 

Alpha had strong archers with very fast arrows that can stun and remove a knight's shild for a second. And it was actually annoying because a knight can't do anytinhg at long range.

Archers must stay as a support but they need something more to support the team or do more damage to enemy.

Archer was my favorite class but now I'm playing it only when I can use water/fire/bomb arrows.

 

I think I've had enough of this thread. I don't see how making all of the archer's core mechanics clunky clunkier than they already are, and adding some Terraria-tier bloat in any way makes the archer more effective as a class.

 

Well you may say that KAG isn't a place for people to show off skill, and is rather a team game. How is showing off your skill in KAG not directly linked to helping your team? Every kill you get is a boon to your team. Showing off your skill IS helping your team, and being rewarded for playing well IS an important factor in motivating people for helping their team to win. And yes, that little red or blue writing alongside your name is a motivator for many, including me. It's concrete visual feedback that you're helping out.
"Firing a water arrow into a group of Knights so that your own Knights can take them out is not an indicator of an Archer's skill or contribution" is entirely correct in three ways: You aren't acknowledged, because the Knights get the kill, you aren't displaying much skill by firing a single arrow [this is becoming less true with the nerf, but point stands] and like I said there is no INDICATOR to the Archer's contribution, no "assists" as many supports in other games get, nothing. Sure it's an act of teamwork; one for which the Knights reap the reward and not the Archer.

Once again, like I said, being a "support" in KAG is boring to play, and when relying on a Knight to do the damage for you, you aren't facing up against the intelligence of that enemy Knight and getting to fight him yourself, you're just pelting him with arrows like an opportunistic jerk. The enemy Knight will be too busy fighting the other guy to actively dodge. Or otherwise, in a situation where you have no Knight, you can't damage a shielded Knight ever, and while you should be able to defend a wall you're standing on from a Knight who's bombing it or hacking it away, you can't even do that. All you can do to counter the shielded Knight is run away.

"You don't like how the archer is played? Instead of trying to change the archer, adapt to the playstyle" is a quote that irritates me. Say I took away the Knight's Shield entirely, how would you like that? When the Archer was nerfed to where it is now, there were people with the same attitude as you. "Just get used to it, git gud at Knight, learn to dodge arrows skrub". Telling someone to simply "adapt" to a weaker class is a very narrow minded view.

I'm not asking for arrows that can stun and remove shield, just asking for a weak one, but one that can still be a threat to Knights. If a Knight is in arrow range, he shouldn't be untouchable. It goes against everything advertised by a "ranged" class. Archers should always be vulnerable on flat ground, but their element is meant to be up on base defences and actually being able to defend them without a Knight.

You need to check your facts, being able to hurt Knights and adding a new play feature to the Archer and a sensible melee attack does nothing but make the class more effective. All that's being proposed is VERY MILD mobility nerfs and ammo nerfs to balance it out.

 

That all is way too much to read. I am assuming everything in this thread is just a rehashing of the "Archer General" thread so...

Archer is fine. They already gave archers a huge buff. The game is as balanced as it will ever be.

Yada yada yada. The end.

Update: Lol. @Auburn.

Just read the post above me and saw you mentioned the thread. Didn't even see that when I made this post.

 

You need a lot more patience. This is a thread for discussing game balance in a video game. There is no reason to lose your patience over it. I've lurked a while and checked out that thread among others before, but there are no dedicated threads to the idea I have here. If you want me to not suggest something because one person made a comment in a thread about it somewhere, I'll give you the job of checking the entire forum for relevant posts.

I can assure you I played today and maybe three times in the last week. You don't know what's going on, because you say you encounter 3-5 Archers at a time. Are you insinuating Archer ever gets played more than Knight or Builder? If you honestly think there's ever more than 3 Archers on an ordinary team at a time as a common occurrence you're the one who hasn't been playing.
I look at this at the Knight's point of view with a clearer point of view than you, evidently: For starters, check the OP, where I suggested that being able to fire shield piercing arrows [while grappled, from untouchable areas the Knight can't reach up to] would need to be removed.

Bigger picture? You're not looking at the bigger picture. If you see something wrong with 3-5 Archers up on a wall firing Arrows at 1 of you as Knight and you dying as a result, there's something wrong with your logic. Charging 5 Archers alone is not something you should fucking be expecting to survive.

"KAG just isn't the Archer"--This is a thread about the Archer. This is not a thread considering the Knight's point of view on the Archer. Still, check the OP and you'll see I did indeed think about the Knight's point of view in situations, like an Archer being able to fire arrows from an untouchable location at Knights.

"Knights just got nerfed, I'm adapting pretty well considering I purposefully made a habit of slashing arrows out of the air"
The arrowslashing removal made a ridiculous amount of sense, and yet still weren't that great. All they did was change the window in which you can attack a Slash charging or Slashing Knight from about 2 seconds to about 3 seconds. For everything else? There's RMB[tm]

Those two skilled Archers are taking things in my posts out of context or ignoring them, which does not have anything to do with their skill at the class, and has everything to do with their ability to get the message. And just because people have asked for Archer to be nerfed before doesn't make any of the ideas here wrong; in fact, very few of the points I put forth here have been actually countered except by Trumbles on two things.

How many times do I have to make the point to get it through some skulls? Players of equal skill are still always limited by their class's actual power.
I'm a fucking textbook Archer, playing to the strengths of the class as best I can, and it's still fucking underpowered because my skill doesn't impact on how good the class itself is. Knights just tank out my damage and go for the slash anyway on the Knights I'm supporting, killing them and putting Shield back up before I can even charge the next volley. The Archer's skill set, no matter how I use it, also can't protect defences from an incoming Knight with a Shield and a Bomb. Even with equal level of skill in your class to the others you're still going to be less useful in a class with shitty fundamentals.
Of course you're going to wreck the Archer's ass [on flat ground or in water]. It's the weakest damn class in the game. Thank you for supporting my point in that respect.

90% of that wasn't needed, especially if you didn't even read this thread before putting out your opinion on it.
Huge buff? So, a Knight can destroy your Arrow in midair, and now he can't? Actually he still can: Oh, the Shield.
The only time he doesn't have to Shield is when he's charging a slash and using it, which is about a 1.5 second window for you to attack him while Arrowslash was in. Now that that's removed, it's a 3 second window. Also, in that 3 second window, you still can't kill him if he's on full health. Not a huge buff in any way mate.
Arrowslash removal isn't a huge buff at all while the Knight still has invulnerability while holding R. The game is not balanced, otherwise we'd see more Archers, and other classes than the Knight getting kills more often. It can definitely afford to be more balanced and you guys are just holding that back.

 

On average, 6/10 of games that I play seem to have a higher quantity of archers on at least one team compared to builders and knights, since the new build. That's nowhere near uncommon.

All of your arguments seem so backwards, I can't tell if you're trolling, or just uninformed. I really think you've only scratched the surface of the archer, and you're looking at this too much on the individual level. Archers are team players. They multiply the effectiveness of friendly knights, and make any enemy knight afraid of even raising their sword.

If you haven't realized how significant the removal of arrow slashing is, you really haven't played archer enough. Archers are able to stun enemies with a full charge/legolas within 9 blocks of them, provided they aren't fighting in water. In a 1v1 fight, this allows you to keep an enemy just where you want them, and harass them to death. In team fights, it makes you a bigger threat than all the knights in front of you put together.

Yes, any competent knight will probably have more kills than you, but that's more of a problem that lies in the scoring system of kag. It only credits selfish playstyles, which the archer is not. Basically, don't play archer if you want to flap your epeen around for having 582345345 points.

Oh, and "I've played three times this week" Isn't really grounds to suggest sweeping changes for a class that is almost fine where it is.. jussayin'

I'd suggest digging deeper into archer, particularly fighting at mid-close range and in teamfights.