Change Platform Physics

Lately, I've been noticing an incredible abundance of platform towers. You know - these:




I have mixed feelings about them. On one hand, they are incredibly good at delaying an enemy. On the other? You can't freaking get back over them. You have no idea how many times I've died as an Archer because some Builder made a dozen platform towers all the way across the field and I had no way to retreat from attacking Knights. The nasty thing is that this encourages Archers to camp behind platforms and never be aggressive, which makes them pretty useless.

The reason platform towers are so effective is the same reason they're so annoying - their physics are different from actual blocks. Wallrunning on them is wonky, and usually doesn't work, and similar to trap-blocks, grappling hooks lose their usual tension when hooked into platforms. The end result is that nobody can get over them by conventional means (bombjumps, catapults and such aside).

They're becoming the end-all be-all of quick Builder defense, which kind of annoys me a little, considering how little skill they take to build and how absurdly good they are at stopping both ally and enemy.

I don't think this is how platforms were meant to be used. They were mainly meant to be placed on top of real towers, so defending Archers can use them as cover. This use of them is... weird. To be perfectly honest, I don't like it, and I think it screws with how the game is meant to be played.

So here is my suggestion:
Make platforms' physics like most other blocks' physics. End the glitchy wallrunning and the strange grappling-hook effect. The platforms don't need to be weakened physically - they just need to be made a smoother element of gameplay, which means removing all the odd bugs they cause with movement - bugs that make them crazily powerful as a quick builder defense.

Yes, I realize that this might not be possible. I realize that platforms might work the way they do because this is the only way they can work. But I don't code, so I can't know that. If someone out there can confirm that physics changes to platforms would be a pain in the arse to implement, please say so, and give me another, simpler change.

And yes, I'm not going to deny it - this is essentially a Builder nerf, despite the fact that I have said many times that I think Builders need more love. But listen. The reason I think this one is necessary is because Builders got along just fine before these towers became popular... and there are definitely better ways of making the class more viable. Ways that don't annoy your entire team and encourage all-powerful no-skill-needed walls everywhere.

But that's just my view. I'd be interested to see what the rest of you think.

 

There are multiple ways to allow teammates back through, with a simple door system somewhere in the mix. Bad builders build ONLY plats (imo)

https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/947-the-cancer-tower-and-struts.17407/

 

Unless I'm using one of these to buy enough time to build something nicer, I slap about six blocks down and then start building these (to reduce slash damage) so I just include doors in the lower section. Bad builders will be bad I suppose, but that's never going to change.

I can see how concentrating the enemy in one place might limit your ability to move out, but as long as ally knight are pushing you can go right?

I'm not sure if this was originally intended, but dampening wallrunning seems like one of the blocks primary traits these days.

Aside from the occasional quick switch for fire use, I haven't seriously played archer since I came back to KAG. In my (possibly dated) experience platform only get weird to grapple if you don't let go before the halfway mark. Unless something changed while I was gone I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you elaborate?

Archer deterrence possibly aside this sounds like any tower, ever. Change "over" to "past" and that's more or less the entire point of building. Every structure has a weakness and if the enemies are actually pushing with a group these get chewed down pretty quickly.

I can aggre with you on this one (at least in regards to pure linepieces).

I use platforms as interior wall lining (to fend of blast and protect me while I repair) and as portions of wall much more often than I use them to cover archers. Unless I notice that half my team is going archer, archer friendly building are usually one of my lowest priorities; so almost any time I build something beneficial to archers I'm not doing it to be beneficial to archers.

Still not sure what you're talking about.

These are the epitome of buildings that only work when allies are nearby. You aren't so much keeping the enemies out as you are making it easier for your teammates to keep the enemies out.

Beyond that, if you're pushing forward with a builder (which you should!) these lose to a single ladder. Sometimes a single ladder actually beats two because a derp builder put them too close. Then you just collapse them while your team is fighting (you'll be hanging back anyways) and you just keep moving forward. I'm not saying they aren't strong, but they're pretty easy to beat.

I've never actually looked, but as I said previously I'm fairly certain they work the way they do because they're supposed to.

Once again unless I'm buying time to throw up other defenses I only ever use these as components of buildings, not as the main structure. When proper countering gets more common they'll start to see less use.

Edit: Had an afterthought on something relavent to nerfing platforms but not to this structure. Unless I explicitly need a space to block in two directions (stop arrows on overhangs, et cetera) and I'm almost out of stone I never build with wooden blocks. I'll use them to stabilize doors, but then I take them out. So to me platforms are *the* wooden building material. And that definitely doesn't feel intended.

 

In my experience, solely relying on them is a terrible idea. Bombs, fire, and well, knight waves and every archer, except you, is able to climb over any flat-vertical surface.

 

Try to climb over a 5 or 6 high platform tower as an Archer. I guarantee you, it will take you more time than you can afford with Knights on your tail.

 

You answer to me, and not the person above who has as much a point, and many more points.

Anyways, it seems to me you have some work to be done.

 

@Nighthawk is right, grappling hooks act awkwardly when attached to wooden platforms and trap blocks. The hook feels loose, and doesn't give as much tension/pull.

You need a lot more falling room than usual to make it over these stupid platforms easily, so 5-6 block high platform walls are an awkward nightmare for archers to scale.

These platform walls aren't so much of a problem for teammates if builders have enough sense to put doors on the bottom, but so often i just see retarded walls of nothing but platforms, that do just as much harm to your team as they do theirs.

 

I am not obligated to reply to anyone if I don't feel like it. Just as you appear to be obligated to try and make fun of me with your second post instead of adding anything helpful to the thread. I'm guessing your reason for this was your inability to actually deny my claim, which is perfectly understandable, but honestly, it probably would have been more helpful had you not posted at all. If you wish to make further attempts to ridicule me I would be more than happy to take it to a conversation so we can stop making clutter, all right?

As a gesture of goodwill, I will grant your wish and reply to the poster above you. No offense at all to you, Apronymous. You actually took time to make a rather large post and I apologize for neglecting you.

Spoiler: Response in full

You can push until your lines break at the enemy's defences. When your friendly Knights die and have to respawn, they push back, all the way to these frontal towers, and you find yourself trapped between a rock and an ugly tower.

That doesn't mean it should be that way. Saying something is the way it is does not make it logical, or right.

Trumbles pretty much summed it up - grappling hooks don't pull you as hard when you latch onto platforms. If you still don't quite understand, try it yourself. That's the best way to see what I mean.

It takes a while to chew through 5 or more of them in a row, trust me. They're too effective and too spammable for their own good.

You have listed another good use for platforms which I failed to provide. I was just trying to emphasize that the platforms are being misused in my original post. Well, perhaps "misused" is the wrong word. They're being used quite effectively. I'm just not sure it's good for the game that they're being used the way they are.

Most towers are lost when enemies overrun it and a single enemy builder has the guts to actually run up and place ladders; they're all pretty easily beaten, really.

As I said, that doesn't mean it ought to be that way.

I hope so. But that doesn't solve the wonky physics issues.

 

Figured out a way through: Hook through the tile border between two of the platforms, and get pulled through somehow.
It seems the more elastic force you have, the more likely you can pull through the platforms.

Most reliable when you have space each wall, but you can hook through a 2-wide wall of the things.
Best advice, 1 wide, do it from a 3b distance (You simply slide through), 2 wide, hook through when you are off the ground.

Personally, I see the walls almost immediately mowed down by knights, and arty archers.

 

Not to mention the grapple penetration glitch that has killed me more than anything else in this game

 

Another weird thing about platforms.





Shooting between two rotated platforms (or two trap blocks or two doors) is harder than other blocks. (I think this is like this because you can not get arrow ladder on those blocks. But please fix it!)

Maybe @Trumbles can explain better. I am sure he knows what I am talking about.

(My English is bad, sorry!)

 

So... spent some time in sandbox. I'd been taking you guys at your word when you said that going over these walls was a nightmare, but having tried it you did not sufficiently stress that point.

I tried Boea's suggestion but had a fair deal of trouble getting through quickly. After a little bit of experimenting I found that from ~2.5 blocks up and ~.5 blocks away throwing to hook to 5 to 6-ish blocks past the wall tended to work very well. From the start of the jump to the end of the crossing the full maneuver seemed to take a little over half a second, and after only 4 or 5 minutes of practice I could pull it off around half the time while coming out of a lunge towards the wall (with my cursor out of position at each start).

I was doing this is sandbox, so I'm not sure how much time you would need while being chased, but that seemed like it would be quick enough? Having to resort to expliots feels kind of grimey and I agree the weird pull strength on platforms needs to change. And if it does ever go away, it would be nice if walking back across platforms got fixed too.

That said, I'm a builder at heart and unlike Nighthawk I enjoy how platforms hamper wallrunning. Being able to make rushed towers just a bit shorter (proper towers, mind you) is immensely useful when enemy knights are nearby and has saved me from dying more than a few times.

 

@Boea appears to be right. You can somehow phase through the platforms if you throw your hook right. Just like trying to climb them, though, it's finicky, and I don't think it would really work reliably enough to be useful when being chased.

@Apronymous: I'm not entirely numb to your pain. I play Builder a bit (though not nearly as often as Archer, I'll admit) and I know how difficult and frustrating it is to push forward, especially when your teammates can't hold the enemy long enough for you to put together a frontal tower. I think they need some kind of buff. Still, I'm convinced that, well... abuse, for lack of a better word, of the strange nature of platforms is not the best way to give them an edge. Not for the game as a whole.

With luck these towers will fall out of favor, but IMO, I still think that the weird physics could do with a change.

 

Platform walls have been in the beta for like a year now? And it's one of the few ways to make builder viable.

Also playing around shitty platform spammed walls is very easy as well so

man up OP

 

I would never ask platforms to be changed. They're currently the only block type that an enemy knight CANNOT wallclimb abuse (I may have seen it once or twice by total pros but it's nearly impossible otherwise), they're extremely resistant to kegs and bombs, and recently slashes as well. They're an integral block in the game and I would not ask for them to be removed or heavily modified.

Now, adding in trap bridges from classic that you can fall through and that cost 50 wood and can be slash-broken by enemy knights? Yes please @Geti.

P.S. I would like to mention that I've been using platforms as integral parts of my offense and defensive building for at least a year now. The noobs have only just started catching up because they follow what works well.

 

I wouldn't want to change platforms, they're a nuisance to deal with, but an important part of the builder's arsenal. I just wish that people would learn to use them properly, instead of spamming them all over the place without any doors.

 

This comes off as nay saying the entire thread when the main gripe is how grappling hooks react oddly to platforms. Wallrunning mechanics are more of a sub-gripe, though I agree with you there.

And if they were going to put trap bridges back in they'd have done it ages ago. That's sort of on topic... but it definitely looks like it belongs in a different thread. Also tagging Geti over a new topic seems kind of pretentious, especially since the actual discussion hasn't reached a consensus.

Nighthawk, Boea, Rayne (I think? His post wasn't very clear) and I have all complained about this, too. But frankly it's wishful thinking. Though if you have a magical device that makes people less dumb, now might be a good time to tell us.

 

Ehh, people will catch on if they see enough proper ones.

 

I think if it was possible to grapple the side of platforms it would help, as you could get your grapple on the top platform easily and then give yourself more momentum than if it were on the front.