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General Knight Changes

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Auburn, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Official Server Admin Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I have recently noticed a lot of balance issues in KAB, and most of them revolve around knights.

    1)Knights move WAY too fast considering they are wearing armor. Knights have the most speed and mobility of any class when they are the ones wearing the bulky armor. Knights should be slowed down just enough so that other classes could hopefully run away from their power.

    2)I remind you that knights wear armor. So how are they able to swim so fast? Knights should move at a snail's pace in water, since they are wearing solid metal on their chests. This would also make boats much more useful.

    3)Wall hovering. How does holding a sheet of metal above your head allow you to float up a wall? This underpowers buildings and gives knights that can't bombjump a handicap. This technique should be completely removed from KAB

    4)Why don't knights stop charging their slashes after being stabbed? When a knight is stabbed, they should be flinched long enough to interrupt their charge, but not so long that they can't put up their shield to protect against stab-spammers.

    By the way the class I play as the most is actually knight, so I'm not being a hater, I just want balance in the game.

    Edit 1/5/14: I no longer stand by any of these opinions, and number 3 was fixed.

    8/15/14: Underlined has been added to the game, and striked out I don't care about anymore
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
    MadDog, rymcd, NinjaCell and 3 others like this.
  2. Knights have the mobility because they're the class that is doing most of the legwork anyway.

    Archers can outmaneouvre close up with grapples anyway, and builders can hurriedly build something to protect themselves.
     
  3. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Official Server Admin Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    What I mean with the balancing issues is that knights insta-kill archers and builders if they get anywhere near them, which makes the classes unbalanced. Knights should either move slower or have less health (no armor)
     
  4. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    As someone who always hated how the knights always got the long end of the straw when it came to nifty tools and having the most potential in soloing most matches, it kinda pains me to say that they seem kinda balanced now that archers had their own recent buff. Kinda put the two on equal footing in my eyes. Allow me to help clarify a few things by offering a few answers/opinions regarding all of the points you brought up.

    1. That's something I mentioned in the past aswell but honestly, now that archers have the grappling hook? I'm surprised to say that archers seem like the more mobile class IF you know how to use that grappling hook right. In fact an archer can run away faster than a knight through the use of that grappling hook. Builders of course, still require other knights for defense but most builders should be building behind a wall or charging alongside fellow knights to protect him. Removing the knight's shield parachute would limit it's mobility BUT it would make it more dull to play and I kinda like that parachute shield ability.

    2. First thing to keep in mind is that KAG really isn't based on realism, else we wouldn't have shield parachutes or grappling hooks, on the other side, I do agree that it's a bit annoying how knights can slash their way through water faster than the other classes but alas what can you do? I've actually learned to stay out of the water when any other class besides a knight.

    3. That is more or less a glitch and I think it was mentioned in the news that it might get removed soon enough. Thank gawd for that since it makes most small towers useless and allowing players to plow through some challenge maps.

    4. I believe one of the devs explained why such a thing hasn't been added. I believe it had to do with the fact that knight have always relied on careful calculation of the distance between them and their target and of course, careful timing. Personally, I don't mind how the current knight combat works but there are moments when a simple jab might be more efficient than a charged slash; such as when your opponent has 1-2 hearts left and is preparing for a charged slash, at that point (depending on the distance) it might be better to just rush towards him/her and jab repeatedly hoping to finish them quickly.

    Might suggest waiting for the next patch once the silly floating glide shield thing gets fixed, that's certainly going to be a bit of a 'nerf'' for knights.
     
    NinjaCell and Gurin like this.
  5. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    The problem is, knights lost everything they had and stood for in classic, knights are not like that any more, there is no focused distance calculation as it used to be, it's just mindless slash and jab spamming as it is now, in classic you could kill dozen of players and here you get killed by mere 0.1 second of releasing the button where is balance in that? Knights are like cannon fodder and the slippery controls don't help it at all, where is the movements accuracy we had in classic? Why are knights so slow while shield gliding? It's totally useless, the slash range is incredibly massive, double power slash kills everything instantly as it breaks through shield block and someone who keeps jumping on you and keep spamming left-click has more chances, I always asked for addition of shield bash to counter this idiocy.

    I can keep going about how much knights suck right now and how this class would work way better with some proper rework.
     
    Chaoticredux and allknowingfrog like this.
  6. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,194
    -
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
    Piano, Rainbows, Digger101 and 4 others like this.
  7. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    I totally agree with Oldman Pix. I've played Classic before, and I was actually quite good at the game, the way fighting worked was quite.... clean, clear and under control. But in beta.... it's not so clean and clear... in fact it's kinda like when you accidentally drop a slice of bread; that you smeared peanut butter all over, on your keyboard... just less messy and less harder to get off. What I'm trying to say is that the devs should try in some way to bring that back, meaning how the controls were like, not the double slashies or the "somehow-you-got-enough-upper-body-strength-to-hold-up-a-shield" parachuting... or the "Newton-must-be-rolling-in-his-grave" wall jumping. Other than just those two, that's really all that's just a tiiiiiny bit problematic...

    So yea... now I must go, my people need me.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Nope. Any archer worth their salt should be able to evade a knight, and any knight worth their salt should be able to close the distance easily.

    Classic Knights are NOWHERE near the Beta Knights - they're two different playstyles.
     
    Galaxydog1 and WarrFork like this.
  9. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    Messages:
    641
    Bring back the old movement and fighting? You mean the clunky sluggish and boring movement and fighting of classic? You're a moron

    I agree, with the recent update it is far easier to kill a knight 1v1 with an archer. The legalos shot has the exact same damage potential as a double slash against a shielding knight, and due to the knights being overly cocky it's easy to get that 3 damage in
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  10. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Maybe instead of insulting people you could actually add something from yourself instead of coming in to the thread to shit all over it.
     
  11. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    Messages:
    641
    Why bother when there already are a shit ton of posts made by people smarter then I who have explained why combat is better, I'm sure if you searched around you would find them. I'm not in the mood to go link surfing for you. Not to mention I did give reasoning, the combat in classic is boring and sluggish. Maybe next time read my post.
     
  12. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    I think the main issue here that there might be a few glitches which impair a knight's performance such as the 0.5 stun which makes double charged slash and charged slash + jab almost impossible plus the fact that archers are now on equal footing with knights when it comes down to fighting back.

    Add the fact that knights were used to getting easy kills when encountering an archer (almost no way to fight back) and I can certainly see why some might think that knights are weak. My advice is to wait for further updates that might fix this and learn to deal with the new archers.
     
  13. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    Messages:
    641
    Yeah but the thing is that there doesn't need to be an update for something that isn't broken. People themselves need to "l2p". At least in my opinion. Since the classes seem perfectly fine. There's always going to be that one person who bitches about how unbalanced something is. Even if its not
     
  14. itt: op cant kill knights 1v1
     
    Kalikst, Piano, NinjaCell and 4 others like this.
  15. allknowingfrog

    allknowingfrog Bison Rider

    Messages:
    549
    To those of you who like knight combat as it stands: How often is your sword actually in contact with an enemy when you score a kill? How often do you score a kill with a slash-stun combo move that leaves no possibility of recovery? Do you even use jabs? How often do you rely on another class, or even another knight to accomplish anything?

    You are the 1% and the rest of us don't have much fun playing against you. There was a golden age when a creative mix of jabs, slashes, maneuvers and shield-bashes determined the outcome of battle. Knight combat in the current build heavily favors better slash timing to the exclusion of all other strategies, and the victor generally walks away without a scratch.

    Why does combat move faster than the image on the screen? Why doesn't a jab interrupt a charging slash? Why is the faster slash the only one that does damage? I know the game isn't about realism, but imagine a real sword fight. If both parties swing at about the same time, they're both going to take some damage.

    While I respect those of you who have managed to master combat in its current state, the rest of us are puzzled and frustrated. Should the game really be so completely dominated by a handful of incredible players?
     
    hierbo, Chaoticredux, Reudh and 2 others like this.
  16. you slash first and the other guy dies, if you step back and dodge you can kill with a later slash.
    jabs are very nice if you have no time to sort out serious damage/need only to finish someone off. they also work quite nicely with hopping over and jab spamming as someone tries to charge a slash.
    you shield off arrows and jabs


    also yes, if you are better you should win. if you are much better you should dominate. thats how games work in general. do you have a problem with it?

    edit: i realized it might sound like i consider myself supergood, i dont. i just dont have a problem with the game
     
  17. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,194
    The only times that slashing wasn't dominant were

    A. Before slashes where you just held forward, clicked LMB furiously and prayed
    B. When shield bash was super broken and ran straight through everything

    For lots of reasons that have already been discussed elsewhere, slashing has to be dominant. It's the only way to make group combat be anything but a spam fest requiring no skill.

    I get what you guys are saying, but really consider: do you want KAG to take even less skill? Because that's what we're hearing.
     
    Beelzebub likes this.
  18. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    What pisses me off is the stuck up people in this community who are afraid to admit something is fucking wrong with this game, but I'll draw my conclusion once it's released officially on Steam and how further updates will resolve issues.
     
  19. sinnertie

    sinnertie Ministry of Hatred Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. PumpkinStars - [Pk#] - Inactive

    Messages:
    252
    Exactly. Now at least the game is expecting from us some kind of play-style, skills, tactic and thinking which decide about winning or failing. If slash would get nerfed, whole combat experience would be based on how lucky you are or how fast can you spam jab and that sooner or later would become really boring.
     
  20. GloriousToast

    GloriousToast Bison Rider Donator

    Messages:
    1,463
    @op: I disagree with your #1 and #2 points. This is my opinion. Knights are not really wearing armor, it is just an aesthetic. Armor in my understanding means reduced damage and knights take the same amount of damage as the archer and builder. The reason for the extra heart when compared to the skinny archer, is the bulkiness or fatness of the knight.
    If I were to see that your suggestion to be implemented, armor needs to mean something because for all you need to know, they would run around buck naked and still have an extra heart then the archer.
    For your #3 I agree that the bug should be removed.
    For #4 I disagree. Stab spammers are terrible and you should feel bad for making a suggestion that would benefit them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013

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