Knights being able to slash/stab/shield with bomb out leaves archers with no options

So I created an account on the forums to explain how I feel about knights being able to attack with sword with a bomb in hand. Really quick I mostly only play archer ever, have about 100 hours or so logged. While I have other complaints about knights, this is one I think is pretty broken/annoying.

So I tend to like playing my archer somewhat aggressively and on the front lines(this applies to most archers anyway). So let's preview a simple scenario.

Me and a knight are on flat ground surface, I keep my distance fairly well, moderate distance- not to close, not to far. I shoot arrows and harass a bit - knight pulls out a bomb, I now have 4 options:
1). grapple as far away as I can(not always possible due to terrain, limited space, etc)
2). run closer into the knight in hopes they will throw the bomb far, then create distance after
3). go for the kill, avoid bomb/die from it
4). die

1 is a common approach but knights can throw bombs quite far, doesn't always work as it can be read quite easily, 70% success rate id say
2 ... so i could go in closer to the knight, less experienced knights may get confused->dont throw bomb and blow up(LOL), or throw bomb so close (blow up me and him, fair trade i guess), but its possible to shield whenever so its usually just the archer

the part that is quite sketchy is that the knight can hold the bomb + shield, or hold the bomb + attack, so if i try to play mind games with the knight by running close in, he can slash me to bits, which is something that happens about 70% of the time
3 is nice if we can get it, the big problem is that in order for this to occur in most cases against any somewhat experienced knight, we must use the shotgun to kill them, because of the recent mentioned hold bomb + shield, all of our other charged single arrow shots mean nothing. In such situations we need to been charging that very early on for it to be ready to go
4

Potential Solution
Well we have a few variables we could potentially tweak
a) Get rid off attack + bomb hold or shield + bomb hold, keep one of the 2, probably shield+bomb hold
b) Decrease throw distance of bombs, srsly you guys throw those things far, it's depressing that you can do most of our job better with bombs alone
c) Decrease bomb explosion radius, this should be done either way IMO

I understand I will probably get some flame for this, but we should talk about classes and certain scenarios that don't seem optimal/fair so it's all constructive in my eyes. Anyway that's my view from my style of play/archer style, I'd like to hear anybody's thoughts on it.

 

Very nice summary of that, I see you put alot of work into it.

I play archer alot probably have 2000+ hours and I have noticed that the bomb spam is quite high. I mean, i've thrown a bomb further than someone could fire an arrow.

a) This is fine, nothing said.
b) The throw bomb distance could be less, probably the drop in the bomb height over time could be decreased.
c) A little bomb explodsion radius decrease would be nice but not necessary.

 

I've heard speculations of making it so bombs won't let you be able to slash/jab. I'm pretty sure geti likes the combat of the game and would make special items more expensive if it wasn't for all the flame he'd get. I think bomb spam is very annoying even as a knight main. I like bombs for destroying towers and bomb jumping, but I've seen many "good" knights hold bombs till the last minute and throw them so they are uncatchable which ends up dealing a shit ton if you aren't careful. I wish there was a way to keep bombs for bomb jumping and nerf the damage against players. I'm really torn on this one. I feel like knights need bombs to have that edge in combat. Some of you archer mains are slippery enough as it is!

 

Yes, bombs are annoying. However, I don't think you should decrease the throw distance. I think the damage radius should be decreased. I think it would be funnier to see more knockback and less death.

Another thing I just thought of. What if, when an archer catches the opponents bomb, the archer can disable it? Nah, bad idea.

 

1) if map does have difference terrain, it doesnt slow down archer so that knight can throw a bomb. With hooks archer can just reach his base in a matter of seconds, which is good for an experienced archer.
2)The tactic that you can come near to knight is good, but needs a lot practice to fool the knight. (sometimes archer coming near knight too early before bomb has been thrown/being)
3)To kill he must at least have 1 heart. What about avoiding bombs, you can use arrows to shoot the bomb quickly (needs a lot practice)
4) NOT ALLOWED
i am an archer too, i am playing it like 100+ hours and i know that the bombs are quite spamming around the map. but to get sure that no one touch you = be a sniper.

 

I... actually like this idea.

 

Simple, stomp the knight and let him blow himself up.

 

... Okay, I'm sorry, but this is just stupid.
Stomps stun for even less time than water arrows, and it's already semi-difficult to time a water arrow properly to get a Knight to injure himself with a bomb. Even if you did manage to stomp at the proper time, you would probably die or take damage from the resulting explosion.

 

But in all seriousness. Yes, that would probably end up with you taking at least some damage. What would be more likely is for the knight to panic and forget to throw after being stomped.

 

Well, all of the things you mentioned ar there to make the game more fun and balanced for knight vs archer. Archers just shouldn't be able to walk out by themselves against a knight who has bombs and expect to kill him , unless the knight is a bad player. Throwing bombs from far up places does produce longer range than arrows so I can see why drag on bombs should be increases to reduce the distance there. Everything else is there for a reason however.

 

Fair point, in a nutshell you're saying, archers don't necessarily belong on the front lines and if for whatever reason they decide to do so, knights should wreck there world as there are playing on their turf. I've thought that over quite a bit as well, the whole archers should just play from afar / snipe/ etc. The distance of the bomb traveled is what doesn't agree well with your point about the archers walking out, we can only dodge so far!

However yes, I think the distance should be reduced, the radius of explosion, or the damage of the explosion. They should be more of a short-mid range killer/chunker, not a long distance death tool.

Not sure if you've played archer or not but stomping isn't exactly simple with them. LOL, like we have to gain quite a bit of velocity to make even a small stomp occur.



Also, what's the deal with shooting bombs with the arrow? I figured that would be awesome but once I finally achieved it, the bomb went nowhere, it's velocity just stopped, I feel like the bomb hit box could be upped a bit and/or make our arrows powerful to shoot them a way at least a bit more. At least that's my experience with that, could be doing it wrong?

 

(Corners are your allies)
well i wanted to say that
(corners are your allies)
the bombs should be a bit more heavy maybe?
(corners are your allies)
just wanted to point that
(corners are your allies)
it could balance a bit more the game, but please dont make them like in classic
(corners are your allies)
oh, i almost forget something, corners are your allies, and the grapple too (in a flat map)

 

Grappling hook.

 

It's all I do, still bad , against knights anyway.

 

In b4 the knights shields your stomp or slash/pokes you while still having the bomb

 

I think that what makes issues like this one so difficult is that each one is taken on its own, when really what might be a better solution is a complete balance overhaul.

For example, I don't think that archers or builders are particularly out of balance, except when compared to knights. Knights have by far the most maneuvers, have by far the most resiliency, and can deal by far the most damage. I think that there is definitely merit in reducing the bomb's thrown range, but other than that, I really like this approach. Please bear with me and read the whole proposal prior to the flames.

I feel that knights would be more balanced vs. the other classes if they were rebalanced such that knight vs. knight combat worked out exactly the same, but knight vs. builder or archer is somewhat less favorable to the knight. To do that, I propose this:

1. Reduce knight health to 12 (3 hearts)
2. Reduce jab damage to 2 (1/2 heart)
3. Reduce slash damage to 6, down from 8 (1.5 hearts down from 2 hearts)
4. Reduce bomb damage and splash damage by 25%

I know this sounds like a mega-nerf on its face, but think of the ramifications of what I've proposed. I've thought about this quite a lot, and I believe that knight vs. knight combat will be either completely unchanged or improved for the following reasons:

1. Jabs are further marginalized; it will take 6 jabs to kill a knight, instead of 4, which seems to be what people want
2. It still takes exactly 2 slashes to kill a knight, just as before, due to health and slash damage being reduced in the same proportion.
   
3. Bombs, if reduced in damage by the right amount, will still do the exact same percentage of total health damage to the knight, up to and including 100%, if the damage is modified properly.

Think of this proposal of knight vs. knight combat like 2 people each getting two fourths (2/4) of a pie, instead each getting one half (1/2) of it. They're getting the same proportions, but the representative numbers have been changed.

What DOES change is how the knight stacks up to the other classes. It will now be conceivable (albeit unlikely) for an archer to one-shot a knight. It will also now not be possible for a knight to kill an archer with a single hit (except from a bomb, of course). The knight would have to double slash, or slash+jab, or slash+stomp, etc, in order to kill the archer. The builder would have the same health as the knight, true, but the knight still has his shield to make him dramatically more resilient than the builder.

I don't mean to hijack your thread on you, but I think that there is a general frustration surrounding the impotence of other classes vs. knights, which manifests on these endless tweak suggestions on some move or another. Unfortunately, if you're trying to turn a shack into a mansion, you're not going to get there by an endless series of minor tweaks; you need something more comprehensive.

 

eh.... i mean i know where your coming from but in kag balance doesnt mean knight being more even with builders and archers. knights need to be dominant over the other 2 classes so that kag doesnt suffer in other areas. besides they are knights after all, without armor on i doubt anyone could survive getting slashed by a sword :P

 

NOPE
NOP
NO
jabs need to do 4 heart damage1 your philosophy sux noob!

On a side note though @hierbo , jabs are really easy to counter, but a lot people have a habit of charging a slash every second in every situation, and the majority just get stunned...and then complain.
People don't realize how vulnerable you can be just by charging a quick slash, let alone a double, and when I play Knight I use that to my advantage. @Solaris thats rite sol?? nub


I personally believe this 'problem' is fine as it is, Archer just has a higher skill ceiling when it comes to a situation like this. But their still can be possible changes to be made.

 

I'm complaining more and more about the explosion radius for the bombs . Since everyone is now using them , it's just a "Dodge the bombs" game on front line .I could see a little tweak to the radius !