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Discussion in 'Balance' started by Contrary, Sep 7, 2013.


Should water ammo be removed?

  1. Yes.

  2. No.

  3. No, but it needs lots of changes.

  1. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester


    //@UP: In order to keep thread clean and keep track of popular opinion, we added a poll.
    Please, vote there instead of "signing" and save posts for relevant discussion
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2013
    Retrofit, Atheon, Drusse and 5 others like this.
  2. rocker2

    rocker2 Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. PumpkinStars - [Pk#] - Inactive

    at first is was funny, now it's just annoying.

    E: apparently I typed that in all caps, fixed.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  3. -Tj-

    -Tj- Sicarii Donator
    1. The Ivory Tower of Grammar-Nazis

    It would be alright to have water ammo if it didn't stun you for so long and was used for fires not assault.
    inactive_account likes this.
  4. eamono

    eamono Arsonist

    I vote that they change it so it's less annoying and unavoidable (perhaps it bounces off shields?)

    But if that never happens you have my sig
  5. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Water ammo, from what I can recall, they are more useful for pretty much everything.

    Fire is negated by water ammo.
    Water ammo is incredibly available, so pretty much every engagements is riddled with water, and arson is pretty difficult to pull off.
    With some sort of tact, you can stun lock a large portion of the other team with the two second stuns, and decimate them. [So in essence, it makes teams battles drastically more simple when it lands, and the alternative are Knights Slash/Shield-Dancing with each other.]
    With lag, you can actually water bomb yourself, when you are trying to momentum throw them.
    The stun isn't personally useful, since you have to be fully charged, and just outside of the self-stun radius to reliably get a hit off.
    I personally figured out a way to survive constant water ammo, shield slide backwards.

    I get some of the rationale behind water ammo, that it gives archers the stun they so much "need", but for the knights, it really seems to be a method of delaying the inevitable. But it pretty much negates the utility of fire ammo, and makes team combat into a mess of stuns, in addition to multi-killing slashes, or ass hats like me that backpedal while shielding, and don't die.
    [Seriously, slashing out modes itself because of issues with ping bias, causing knights to dance next to each other slashing at the air. I'm certainly not getting into that mess, it's untenable]

    I don't like water ammo, it is pretty frivolous, and removes arson as a threat to anyone with its incredible availibility. -Signed
  6. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    I agree about removal of water ammo, water buckets should be made more useful instead, like filling them up and tossing will cause stun on enemy players, unlike water ammo or water bombs it won't be spammed.
  7. king-george

    king-george Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    water ammo is good, i dont understand, yes, they do spam it, but who cares?
    almost noone uses water ammo, but if you dont like it that they spam it, then remove the super charge thing
  8. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    The reason why no one really cares about the multi shot is because it can be easily no sold by even a half-wit knight.
  9. king-george

    king-george Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    so what, you all started hating water ammo as it was added...
  10. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Water ammo? It's been in the game for the longest of times, and believe me, I came just before silent beta ended.

    Water ammo, it's for the most part a cheap solution to getting past a Knight's shield, while at the same time, doesn't give you any time to make any use of the stun that it causes.
    [If anything, you are just delaying the enemies for half a second before they do the same thing to you]
    Otherwise, with its availability, it makes fire/arson pretty meaningless.
    [And you really need fire to prevent things like sky bridging]

    I don't like water ammo because it doesn't add much, other than half second stun that is nigh useless outside of stun range, and makes fire, one of the defining features of the game, all that more laughable.


    For the multi shot, I think it's mostly use full for volleying special ammo [affirms "glass cannon" status], and that's about it, past that, maybe used for arrow ladders, but it's otherwise unreasonable in combat, and makes life harder for other archers to do damage, ironically enough [invalidates "Fragile Speedster" and "Weak, but Skilled", since the shield is an aegis].
    But that is neither here nor there, since that's an issue with changes to archers.
    A half second stun doesn't help an archer all that much because they are so damn squishy, and pretty much built for more spray and pray from the hilltops or being extra bombs for knights, and losing their identity as a combat class [let alone ranged-combat], because they are part of RDM: the straight-forward combat mode.
  11. king-george

    king-george Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    ok, but whats the point of removing it? you have any idea how many people play kag? naybe most like it, but naybe everyone hate it, but if it doesnt protect archer, what about just that the archer doesnt take with it water ammo?
  12. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    The average daily, at peak is about 200 on both alpha, and beta versions I last heard, and saw.
    [I still feel that's being pretty loose with the numbers]

    When it comes to removing a feature, it isn't entirely up to the community about what stays, and what goes, a good example of this is the general outcry that is caused whenever the devs try to level archers with knights, but are battered into nerfing archers again.

    That being said, water ammo as a feature is pretty extraneous, since you can still easily deal with arson with a bucket; water ammo makes dousing fires too readily available [or easy], and makes fire [a lauded feature of the game] a non-issue and useless.
    Water ammo is pretty "hit, miss, and critical miss", at best letting your team kill someone [which isn't that hard, when you rush with slashes], at worst stunning you when you throw it, waste time, and possibly die; most of the time it's a miss.
    Most of its use comes in delaying people without the use of a shield to do so anyways.
    Gurin likes this.
  13. king-george

    king-george Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    have you thought about other people?
    naybe they like water ammo
  14. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    There is not much to like about water ammo, mechanically speaking, it's incredibly replaceable with things already in the game [buckets], and with less risk to yourself [shields, walls], simplifies the tech tree [the mounted bow is something else that is at risk or removal], and makes a lauded feature of the game useless [fire/arson].

    It makes wooden structures need more maintenance to last longer, making stone walls even more valuable, gives the bucket/workbench more use, and encourages people to take care of the hall.
    So if anything, it makes the difference between wood and stone, repairs, and fire a lot more important than it is now, which is entirely beneficial to pretty much both sides of the conflict, and builders.

    And as far as other people, the ones that "don't care" and "don't like it" vastly outnumber you, and there is no public outcry against removing it.

    [There's your consideration]
  15. king-george

    king-george Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    well, think of how many play kag, and how many have signed in here...hmm?
    yes, then we outnumber YOU...(ofcourse i dont know that)
    and. water ammo almost doesnt take any space at all, so there is no point of removing it, at all(i dont know who is ragin' here, me or you?)
  16. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    No, it does take room in: workshops/migrant caps, techs, inventory [1/4 Knights', 1/4-1/8 Archers'], and can't be used by one class; proves to be unreliable, and makes another feature, fire, forgettable/extraneous, by adding two more ways to douse fires, when the other method already out modes fire [buckets; which are not class-specific, needs no tech/migrants/workshops, has no item cap, and has 3 uses per fill].

    Anyways, it's still explicit that the "Remove Water Ammo for Good Reasons" plus the "Don't Care" groups, still outnumber the "I like Water Ammo" plus the "Don't Care" groups.
    The formula here is: "A + C > B + C", which is more or less "A > B", A being the ones that want to remove it, B being the ones that like it, and C being the ones that don't show any care/opinion whatsoever.
    [An alternative formula would be "C/X > A/X > B/X; ", with "X" being the active/relevant community/playerbase]
  17. Gurin

    Gurin Stop That! Global Moderator Donator Tester


    Oh wait..

    Almost half the KAG community are alts, non-prem or at least trolls. Another point is that most people that play KAG don't even know that we have a Forums for this game, sadly.

    Also, we are not talking rage, more an argument for against and for' the statement. You're the one who is not making valid points.

    Yes, "Water Bombs" are insanely frustrating. But it needs to be nerfed or at least removed, then, brought back into KAB to maybe balance the game in the future?
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  18. king-george

    king-george Haxor Staff Alumni Tester

    ok, guys, why do you even BOTHER about water ammo, its so rare that somone even uses it
  19. Galen

    Galen Haxor Staff Alumni Donator

    Yeah but when some one uses it, it's damn annoying because you really can't do shit against that stun lock. Also, it doesn't do any damage and wastes migrants you could've used for military supplies or something else that is comparably valuable like it.
  20. actually i see it every fucking game some idiot makes water bomb factories and i spawn with 2 water bombs and 0 regular bombs.
    the other team has water bombs too and everyone tries to get rid of them and the game becomes one big stunfest that nobody likes and everybody has to deal w/ because of those idiots researching water weapons
    Boea likes this.