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ReBalance mod discussion

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Rayne, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Drill in its current state is what a drill should be, but I think it should have a large price increase. I'm talking 75+ coins at least. I didn't get to test the pickaxe too much but Verra was talking about a slightly faster version and I think that'd be perfect. The axe is amazing. I think it's hilarious does a good amount of damage and isn't too powerful. I was talking to Verra about adding a charge animation so it'd be easier to aim and it would slow the speed down a bit. The only problem I encountered was having a hard time getting used to aiming the axe but that's coming from a knight main who slashes and spam clicks. I think this is the buff the builder needs and I really hope most of it makes it in game one day.

    1 possible bug is that the axe and pickaxe switch sprite sometimes switched back to pickaxe
     
  2. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    i think i have the axe anim fixed in single player, plus i changed the cooldown, might not need a charge now?
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    Archer crawling shouldn't be very buggy anymore. You can't fall into 1 wide holes anymore. You can also do a little hop now to get over one block. Hopefully the server will be public in the next few days we just need to prepare some other stuff.
     
    BlueLuigi, NinjaCell, hierbo and 4 others like this.
  4. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    I always wanted some way to move, even if just a little tiny bit, whilst "playing dead"...
     
  5. Gurin

    Gurin Stop That! Global Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    358
    Holy Shit. This might just bring me back into KAG. Balance :) Keep the good work up.
     
    kodysch and hierbo like this.
  6. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    In many ways it's things like this that make me most excited about the mod. Oldfags coming out of the woodwork and showing an interest like they used to. ::):
     
  7. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    But what about the suggestions i made? :rektlord: no one has neither disagreed nor agreed yet
     
  8. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Did you fix the bug where you can stand up if the tunnel is flooded?
     
  9. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    I couldn't agree more. It is also yet another piece of anecdotal evidence against the endless drone of "everything is fine as it is" that has been so maddening in all previous attempts to get something like this going in earnest. @Rayne , @Verrazano , and all others who have contributed have really outdone themselves; hats off to them!

    The fact that this effort is being spearheaded by forum moderators has helped tremendously, as well. So many times in the past, threads and efforts like these would fail to be constructive due to incessant derailment by trolling, with the well-intentioned folks having to spend all of their time and energy debunking fallacious reasoning, flaming, and those arguing with self interest in preserving each of their particular favored OP mechanics, rather than productively discussing the topics amongst themselves. Hats off to you guys for this too!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    FuzzyBlueBaron, kodysch and Noburu like this.
  10. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    I don't know how I feel about crafting. I don't think coins are confusing or a hassle enough to warrant an entire rework of the system. Also it would have to be that way for every single class and item. I don't like the idea of having an archer be able to hide inside a bunker and make a few bomb arrows then walk out shoot them, go back make more. The idea of crafting items for no material seems a little bit flawed. The material required currently is coins and you craft at shop. Yes it may be true that archers sometimes get less. But that's why we're trying new costs for items. Such as making bomb arrows/mines cost less.
     
    Noburu and BlueLuigi like this.
  11. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    Yeahh but if you lower the prices, then knights can buy them in awful bulks and they'd have to be nerfed. With this system they remain powerful but as they're predictable, they're much easier to prepare a counter for. See that archer crafting shit in his bunker? Craft some water arrows yourself, and as he tries to fire his bomb arrow, stun him and watch him get gibbed by the dropping doomsday device. Archer coming up with fire arrows? Buy a water bomb already, just in case. It's also more predictable and enjoyable for both teams' melee when they can see when an archer has a water bomb at hand. The enemy's psyche and melee focus changes as they see an archer approach with water arrows; they can't be in bulk, they have to pull back from enemies or have a teammate ready to knock down knights coming to kill the stunned target, or just bomb the archer. Vice versa, the archer's teammates see that he has water arrows at hand and can prepare beforehand to finish off the targets he stuns.

    Oh, right, I forgot to mention that the bow along with the chosen special arrow would always be visible. You couldn't "store" special arrows, you'd have to use them right there and then. Plays a big part with this change.

    Another thing it encourages is forward building. Notice how you already used a bunker example in your counter-argument - without forward cover the archer would be left way too open to use his ability often. Builders would be encouraged to build some little forward trenches like we used to have waaay back in the day, and you might even get nice instances where a knight stops to shield a crafting archer from incoming arrows.

    Archers can dig now and make their own bunkers, sure, but they won't be as good as a builder would make. Naturally you couldn't craft while prone, so if the archer wanted to do a safe bunker on his own he'd have to waste a lot of time digging a crevice leading to a 2-block tall dirt bunker, then wasting time crawling in and out between shots. In other words, hardly feasible - teamwork and player interaction is required.

    I can't see how this wouldn't make pubs much more enjoyable, especially for the noobs. Noob archers will have access to special arrows more often and can actually learn their functionality, and there are no sudden bomb arrow hails if you have your eyes open. Overall makes things more understandable and predictable IMO.

    Also I disagree that other items would have to work the same way - arrows are a unique item and for a unique class, and although such continuity would be nice, it's not necessary. There is a material required, by the way, which is just normal arrows. Them you could buy in the shop like always.
     
  12. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    I was actually going to suggest (similar but nowhere near the scope of yours) that fire arrows be able to be created by pulling out a regular arrow and holding it near a campfire (or lantern?) for a period of time (1~second).

    I do like the way you're thinking about it for sure Monsteri, I also feel that crafting it could be tricky though... would they just craft 'out of nothing' similar to coin shopping? Would water arrows need a bucket? (Where does the glass come from?), would bomb arrows need a bomb?

    e: Okay, I see your only catalyst would be time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    BucketEmpty likes this.
  13. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    Yeah, sandbox-esque crafting wouldn't work in a fast-paced game such as this.

    It also requires normal arrows though! You CAN run out of them sometimes ::D:
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  14. BucketEmpty

    BucketEmpty Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    35
    Lol @ light regular arrows into fire arrows, that actually sounds pretty sweet.

    Maybe you have a good deal of wood, clearly you will be punished if someone fire arrows it, but while you are disadvantaged why not get a free fire arrow off of it to hold off incoming attackers? Doesn't seem like it would be broken as it wouldn't occur all that often.

    Plus as the archers are "lighting their arrows" 25252525 they potentially leave themselves open at the cost of getting one, maybe require 2 seconds to "light up" 78787878
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  15. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    What prevents some one from just crafting arrows back in base and then using them. Since they have no cost, you aren't really losing anything by just running forward with bombarrow you created at spawn and using it. I'm hard pressed to see this working out in a pub match as something fun for all classes. One class being able to build special items for free that they should have worked for. It changes the mentality of how you play archer a lot, a bombarrow that should be used for a percision kill/tower break is no longer as valuable.

    edit: This system seems very much like the current TTH mechanic. The biggest problem with the TTH factories is that it lets you spam the items. If the craft speed is dependent on how many shops you have then I see this going in a spammy direction. Spammy acher != fun.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    Blue_Tiger and FuzzyBlueBaron like this.
  16. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    I think Monsteri meant that you could only use them then, you couldn't stock them up, or do anything of that sort, if you decided to craft water arrows, it would be visible that you had water arrows on your person, and that's what you had, you couldn't craft them and save them for later.

    (That sounds terribly boring as you stated, and I'd rather go to TTH's mechanic than that)
     
  17. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    Sure it doesnt let you be a dank ninja swapping between all arrow types, but honestly, how often does that happen anyway? How often do you have the need to swap between shit constantly?

    The flaw with this system is that you have to prepare for a clash in advance, but it's also its main strength. Predictability for both sides.

    the other thing of course is that it reduces the trading merchant gameplay where you have to run back and forth between battle and base to restock on special ammo. Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad since you have the grapple hook, but trees get in the way and slow you down a lot. Maybe if you weren't able to grapple onto trees and while grappling, wouldn't be slowed down by them? The mechanic for tree gripping could instead be holding A + D like someone suggested.

    I still like the idea though, it betters all aspects of the game imo.
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  18. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    There's no way in the middle of battle that you will be able to see another archer crafting his arrows and then you will craft yours to counter that. That just won't happen. If someone is far enough away to be safe, it is unlikely that they will be the only player you will face. Just because you can notice someone crafting an arrow doesn't make it any more predictable.

    How long would it take to craft arrows anyway? I mean you get them for free, and you say you can craft them in the enemy base in the event that you forget to bring one. Would there be a cool down? What about when I break in and I find the flag has a two layer defense? I won't be able to craft two ones in a row right there. If I could, could I not just spam them for the whole match.

    Do you really think making team cooperation essential for archers to use arrows effectively, will encourage and simplify it? This is for pub games and half of them don't even understand the concept of an arrow ladder. You can't just give advantages to a certain playstyle in those games, you have to provide motivation (ie: by making building more fun). We want to add simple fun stuff, not complex strategies.

    You aren't really solving much of problem here, just creating tons of new ones.
     
    Rayne likes this.
  19. kodysch

    kodysch Bison Rider Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    I really like this mod. A few things that i don't like:

    1.The 3 heart fire arrow damage is too much, two hearts was balanced and fair.
    2. archer's having the knife.
    3. the builder not having a wind-up animation for his axe attack.
     
  20. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    What about the archer knife did you not like? The digging or jabbing, because the jabbing was kind of a joke on my part.

    I agree a lot with this. Honestly as we work on this mod we will be tightening down on the mechanics we make and work on. We want to make teamwork more motivated allow for more instances of it in a much more natural way that doesn't require communication. It is truly a hard thing to do.

    Thank you today to everyone who played those test rounds on the server. It was a blast I honestly loved crawling under the doors to stop attacking builders.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Noburu and NinjaCell like this.