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The Problem

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Contrary, Feb 23, 2012.

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  1. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

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    This has come up a lot of times, said by a large amount of people, but still I think it is something that doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should. The most pressing balance issue in all of KAG- in fact I'd go so far as to say most of the most widley debated balance problems of the day stem from this one Problem:

    [​IMG]

    Buildings. Buildings, I submit, are the greatest balance problem in KAG today. Often overlooked, many are instead drawn to the flash and violence of blade and shaft, where it is simple stone that sets the stage of battle. Lets take a look at the most controversial game mechanics:

    Bomb Jumping. What does bomb jumping do? What is the main complaint? Bomb jumping allows you to circumvent a certain amount of fortifications, but propelling yourself over. Bomb jumping is powerful because it's a counter to building.

    Catapults. What do catapults do? For one they are strong at killing people and this ability is not to be underplayed, but I'd argue that their main strength is the quick ability to destroy tiles at range. Catapulting is powerful because it's a counter to building.

    Archers. "Haha!" you naysayers might exclaim, there's no way Contrary can argue that archers counter buildings. I agree, they don't. However, they are strong directly because of buildings. Back in the day knights were essentially unable to touch archers. Knights have gotten much stronger in combat and archers much weaker. But now I confidently say that archers are a problem now, and weren't before. In the past, archers could easily avoid knights by moving way, making it so that the knights never reached them. This in of itself was a victory for the knights. If archers are running away and aren't shooting people, they are adding nothing to their team; they might as well not be in the game. Now, archers are not so good versus knights at close range, but they are still invincible, because of buildings. With modern building techniques, new tiles, the build time, and knights doing no damage to blocks, archers are still invincible as they sit in their tower. However now they don't have to move away from knights. Archers are also extremely effective versus catapults, basically the only effective counter to buildings when both teams are competent.

    Because of workers and buildings, games often become shitstorms of projectiles. Buildings are why a team on low lives does and is able to camp out in their base with 30 archers. Buildings are why CTF is just plain boring on a competitive level.

    For KAG to be fun when played between good teams, building needs to be nerfed. Naturally such a large change would need a tonne of testing, but my suggestions:

    The frequently suggested incremental building. To play a block it requires that you hold down left click and spend time building each tiles. Instantaneous wizard block building is ridiculous and ridiculously powerful. Would stop builders from just instaplugging up hallways and would stop people from being able to spam up immense walls in several seconds. The building process would take a second or two depending on the tile and any interuption to the builder- being hit or having something move into the building space, would cancel the building.

    Build time. Build time is ludicrous, infinite free resources for everyone for minutes at a time means the retarded amount of buildup we see in an average game. Ideally I'd like to see zero build time with class changing requiring the production of class change workshops like in zombie mode (I don't think that's a spoiler to anyone now). But for now I think that everyone should get resources on a timer, not how many times they visit the tent, say ten stone and ten wood every five seconds. Maybe then people would actually think about what they build rather than trying to spam as much pure mass as they can as quickly as possible.

    Some might argue that limits on building would make the game less fun, but I think it would make it more fun as you would have to think about your placement more and it would be more meaningful.

    tl;dr: Buildings are OP.

    So thoughts? Criticisms?
     
  2. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    I really have nothing to say, other than you're completely right.
     
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  3. Machinista

    Machinista Shopkeep Stealer

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    An alternative: allow Builders to destroy blocks (a bit) quicker.

    This would make a front-line builder's life much more fun imo.

    edit: although I wouldn't want to see mining any quicker than it is. Hmmm... getting complicated. Can placed blocks be differentiated from those in the ground?
     
    Spoolooni and Jermex like this.
  4. AJ

    AJ Emperor of Mankind Donator

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    Yes please this is a awsome idea(s).
     
  5. Hella

    Hella The Nightmare of Hair Global Moderator Donator Tester

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    I like the ideas, but I think the build time should remain a zone of wizardry, with the changed block placement starting at the end of it. This would allow the large bases to spring up, a thing which I find great, but would realistically hinder the builders making their attempts to either build a forward building or make repairs whilst under fire.

    All in all, some pretty awesome points. ^_^
     
  6. Darcia

    Darcia Chief Fur Love Director <3 Donator Tester

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    90
    Or simply allow knights to destroy blocks again, even if only with a strike. That's how I feel this problem started in the first place.
     
  7. Vivicus

    Vivicus KAG Guard Tester

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    92
    You know, thinking about it? You're right. The issue lies in how useful buildings CAN be, and how few tools there are currently to circumvent without severe reprocussions- tunnels are great but are a two-way street, and skybridges are risky at the very least.

    Maybe this will improve once powder kegs become standard?
     
  8. Foxodi

    Foxodi KAG Guard Tester

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    433
    Not necessarily my preferred solution. But the problem is spot on.
    I'd prefer if archers couldn't move while charging - or knights slash breaking stone (or more siege weapons)
     
    FlameHaze3, MooCowMan and SARGRA13 like this.
  9. Vivicus

    Vivicus KAG Guard Tester

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    92
    The major issue with knights breaking stone is how easy it could become to steamroll through a base.
     
  10. GloriousToast

    GloriousToast Haxor Donator

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    yes make knights more powerful then they are. what about breaking stone would take like 10 slashes to break?
    first time i read/hear buildings are op. Its true. more so then knights and archers combined.
     
  11. Foxodi

    Foxodi KAG Guard Tester

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    433
    Games use to take hoursss when knights could break stone through normal hitting.... Breaking stone through slash is a good compromise.
     
    EstebanLB and Rayne like this.
  12. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    Can't say I fully agree as direct as it is but they are great points, I'm still relatively against builders being nerfed in such a way while the game is still in such early stages as it will need a lot of balance, it is probably better to wait for them to make the next class whenever that is and balance it all at once as long as that isn't more than 6-9 months out.

    Catapults, should be nerfed a bit to do a little less damage to buildings, and maybe not so instant kill to players, I do have to wonder why exactly it is that they instant kill players? Is it that they automatically do 3 hearts of damage, or is it that they keep passing through (there is a glitch with arrows where if you shoot at a certain degree it continually passes through something assuring 1hko), if the latter should be fixed it's a glitch, if the former should be lowered to a rock doing 1 heart of damage, or maybe 2, could be fixed with balance, if they are added in the way of our workshops and other things we could tweak it ourselves.

    Bombjumping, some talks said it was going to be nerfed so that you would probably only be able to hop on one bomb about 7 tiles in the air as opposed to the 15-20 you can get with a single bomb now depending on jump style. (Personally I think that 10~ tiles would be best as that allows slightly above the height of what a typical door should be for no stun, if it is 7 tiles then that allows for someone to set their door 8 tiles above ground [ensuring 0 stun on leaving base] but also allows it to be bombjump proof while open, too OP). Obviously I have somewhat of a strong bias for bombjumping, as I would assume you do too, I think the problems it has are a problem with how people build however in general, people tend to build walls not structures, long are the days that I see people building actual fucking castles like they used to on VirtuaTI and such, huge fucking actua castles, you can't bombjump over cause it's not just a wall it's a complete building, people don't do this anymore, and I'm not a fan that they don't do this, it's a very strong and effective counter to bombjumping, still leaves you exposed to catas but that's not tooo big of a deal usually when you've built a nice sturdy castle.

    Archers with the newest structs people are using, especially knee shooters thrown in with overhang archer spots, the only simple counter is a lot of bombs or a bombjump if it's not tall enough, toss in a proper pit and it's just crazy fun to be archer in those (too OP when we're talking lives as well)

    Stone is only OP because, as Darcia states, Knights can no longer break it. If Knights could break stone but very very very slowly it would do a few things right now:
    A)Get rid of the static and rid knights of 'no goal' syndrome when they reach teh front tower and are alone
    B)Force people to reconsider buildings as 'knight proof'.

    If a knight could only break stone with a full slash and in the end took about 1.5x~2x as long to break it as a builder that would be satisfactory, since you can't double slash blocks anymore it would be quite slow, it would solve this problem without builders being nerfed so hard they'd be unplayable, it would also remove most skill and 'reusable traps' from builders that make up a LOT of the fun, not to mention take any action that is there right now in being a builder.

    Builder is probably the most balanced class out of the three, the combat is pretty solid, can place blocks but have to be fast, has potential but a very high skill cap, I'm sure anyone who's seen Strathos knows what I'm talking about, seen him take on 3 knights and win as a builder that crazy mofo, as opposed to knight combat that is plagued with glitches, teleporting, rock paper scissors tactics while there is severe lag, and overall strangeness as the builds progress (like clashing only being for jabbing, kinda strange, yo~). Oh, did I even mention that I've done tests and there are some people that can full slash for me in 25% of what a bar is for me? Timed it in there being no fucking way they could have gone from being shielded (me jabbing while they were shielded and them not taking damage) to full slashing near instantly (the time it takes to fill 25%~ of the slash meter, in other words fucking fast, too fast), and it's some people consistently, I don't know how they do it, I've tried doing it, I have a suspicion but I dare not blame the perfect netcode.

    That said, I still agree with what you're saying about their being a balance problem when you include buildings and taking ground into the schema, it's much easier to circumvent/break what we currently use, and the balance is strange, but this is something that probably has to play out fully, people are learning more and more about structures as we go and we've still yet to see the endgame of it really as I'm sure that there is much more to be discovered even with what we have, currently I spend one day or so a week doing some 'testing' for structures and a lot of Action tends to hop on and join and we have some fun testing traps, things that work, things that don't, pits, walls, buildings, glitches, etc to try and get our structures to be better and make sure everyone knows how to use the ones we do have.

    (All of this goes out the window and changes when it comes to unlimited lives).
     
  13. Viken

    Viken Horde Gibber

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    108
    Sounds good. It'd take a while to balance, but anything to prevent the Sim City situations that crop up in most big games at the moment. But I have to ask, what's preventing a game-ending rush at the start of a round? Especially in small games where one or two good players are just going to steamroll 4-5 relatively inexperienced players on the other team.

    Aside from adjusting building abilities, I'd also reduce the firepower of the catapult to make up for the slower construction times. It'd be pretty dispiriting for any builder to have their simple tower that took 3 minutes to make collapsed in 3 seconds by a catapult. I'm sure the new siege weapons would make up for any cuts to what's already there. Then again, it'd take a while to set up a siege workshop in the first place. I suppose you'd sort it all out through play-testing.
     
  14. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    Catapults are not that overpowered because of the cost, the main problem is the bomb bug that they have been aware of for a long time. when zombies are done they are going to clean up all the old bugs apparently, so it will probably be sweeped away and balanced then. In case you were unaware, currently if you load a bomb in a catapult it sets the amount of stone in the catapult to 120, no matter what it was before. You can exploit this by going knight, loading a cata at 0 stone, using the 12 shots, repeating. You can be fucked if you have 500+ stone and some dandy comes along and puts a bomb in your cata (might as well be griefing bro, might as well be griefing...).

    That said catas do need a little less damage, they had this at one point, I have no idea what changed, but when it WAS like that... catas didn't damage players, and that's unacceptable really. Also in case anyone doesn't know there's also a bug where if a teammate stands right where your cata's shot originates from, they'll absorb it.
     
  15. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    pretty sure this only happens if he's a builder.
    it counts as team-friendly rubble, like from bedrock.
    therefore you can collect it for stone.
     
  16. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    I've it happen with archers/knights too it slows down through them, if they stand directly on it it makes the sound but gets absorbed, if they stand a bit off it makes the sound but passes through.
     
  17. killatron46

    killatron46 Cata Whore Donator
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]

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    Very true Contrary, however I think that some of the main things that make this game so replayable are due to building. I could spend a very long time coming up with insane structures and traps. I also like reusing, adapting and improving other people's constructions as well. If what you're suggesting is to nerf the current building mechanics then I just don't know about that. Sure builders are OP in a limited lives game, I can't count the number of times I've built a structure that absolutely saved my team from destruction, but that is the thing. A Team.

    Buildings are worthless on their own in most cases, sure they obstruct the other team but they usually don't kill any of them on their own. A good building is one that improves the abilities of the classes.

    Knight:
    Uphill advantage, giving him a place to smash down on the enemy. With shield and sword.
    Bombs, they are a heck of a lot easier to throw off the top of a tower into the angry mob below than from within the mob.

    Archer:
    Uphill advantage, in this build [281] spammed arrows do 1 damage from above, this gives archers a huge advantage. They also are (in a good tower) extremely safe.
    Longer range, when you're higher up, you can just fire farther, end of line.

    Maybe with Wang castles and dungeons in the center of the map, builders will be less op than they are now, because there will be a (maybe multiple?) massive generated structure in the middle. So the game will be more about claiming one of these Wang castles than building one.


    In my opinion, builders archers and knights are all the same in one respect.
    Only "good" archers/builders/knights are OP.
     
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  18. Korin

    Korin Shark Slayer

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    I saw "Wang castles" and immediately thought of giant stone penises.

    Anyway, buildings don't seem to be overpowered at all. It's just the ability for builders to spam stone blocks, etc.

    For instance, myself and another builder, coupled with about 4 knights toppled a relatively large structure within the span of a few seconds.
     
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  19. Huper

    Huper Shipwright

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    7
    I was taught to swordfight by the Black Knight himself so I am usually an archer or a builder and I think knights are OP after being killed millions of times.

    I think it's often the team with the knights that are the most skilled or fortunate bombers that wins. My experience has been that knights don't seem to be having any trouble chopping or blasting through dirt under and around stone blocks to get into towers so I didn't even know that stone could be an issue because they bomb jump over it, shield climb it and dig under it. If anything, I think they should have a harder time breaking down those potato chip-like doors.

    I am also kind of against the gist of this because it lessens interdependence. I support whatever makes each class on each team cooperate in order to win. I also think each class needs an equal balance of fun & work, so if it's a drag not to sword thru stone walls, so it is also a drag to endlessly chop trees for arrows or mine that stone again and again every time you get killed by a knight.

    IMHO
     
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  20. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

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    As stated bomb jumping will definitely be nerfed, talked with Geti about it on IRC a while ago and it's something that's been in the air for some time now.

    Blocking a digging knight is very easy.
     
    Rayne likes this.
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