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Workshop Abuse

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Dargona1018, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    I am here to propose something small that will add to the overall balance of the game.
    Building and Destroying Workshops give no coins.

    In all of my over-300-hours-in-KAG, I have only seen this a couple of times, but it is incredibly overpowered, and can be done within 5 minutes of the start of the game. You just set up about 4-5 trees with saws, and just get as much wood from them as you can. Then, you just make a workshop, break a workshop, make a workshop, break a workshop, etc etc, until you run out of wood.

    As I have seen (haven't tested) if you do this about 10-15 times, you can buy a couple kegs.
    So, you can have multiple kegs about 10 minutes into the game, with all of them rushing to an unsuspecting other team. That breaks the game almost more than jab-spammers.

    Each workshop yields 30 coins.
    That means that 4 workshop = a keg.
    So, as long as you have a small tree farm, you can get a couple kegs easily.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
    crackwise likes this.
  2. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    I have seen this too and it does seem a bit unfair. Not to mention that it promotes no constructive building. Builders should still be rewarded for building shops though. Maybe just reduce the coin earned by building shops.
  3. toffie0

    toffie0 is sweeter than you <3 Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Yeah, builders should be awarded for building shops. For breaking well it more encourages greifers more then anything.... It's basically saying we'll play you money if you greif
  4. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    You will most likely never win a match without shops.
    That should be enough encouragement to build.
    After all, in a 30 minute game, you will only build 5-8 workshops, so the coin yield seems insignificant.
    It's not really greifing since you made it yourself, it's just that it's OP when you spam them, since it yields a decent amount of coin.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2014, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2014 ---
    Updated post with the amount of coins yielded by a workshop.
  5. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    You don't get any coins for breaking an own-team shop, @toffie0 - I don't think you even get coins for breaking an enemy shop currently.

    The yield is reduced to 10 coins during build phase afair.

    Not sure how I feel about dropping the coin yield completely. It's double what you get from spamming them as wood blocks, and can be done quickly, but remember that knights yield upwards of 30 coins from each kill, sometimes more than 50 from extra dropped coins. Would be interested in other opinions from better known players wrt it being "OP" or not. I don't doubt that it's effective, but I can't really see it being a dominant strategy, since you're turning all your repair resources into coin.
  6. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    It can turn a match within seconds.
    For example, a blue builder makes workshops, one after another for a tad bit.
    He uses 600 wood.
    He can buy 3 kegs (not real math, just an estimate).
    The three kegs get deployed.
    Whole rest of the match, the kegs gain more coins for more kegs, and its a never-ending cycle.

    Also, with the knight, they are truly doing something. You can stop them from getting coins.
    It an unstoppable force when it comes to a Builder doing this, inside their own base.
    All they have to do is take down 4 trees, then, bam, a keg or two (depending on how much building the bu builder did).

    And about your wood block statement, that is actually attributing to the game. You don't just spam wood block to get coins. Heck, most people don't even use wood blocks.

    I understand your concern about me being a non-well-known player, but I have over 250 hours put into Beta, and about 50 put into Classic, I believe. I have played quite a bit and a good amount of experience, so I think that I deserve to be thought credible.
  7. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    I'm not questioning your credibility as a player, but recognition in the community is vital for getting people on board with changes like this; I try not make knee-jerk changes as a result of a thread with a handful of players in support unless it pertains to a "real" exploit like the one a few builds ago about teleporting through doors, it's just not worth the community flak.

    I'm considering reducing the amount of coin you can get from this, but a more effective direction might be to reduce the amount of wood yield from saws - until this has been properly discussed I'm not likely to make either action though.

    A top tier knight can push 300-500 coins (2-4) kegs after a single successful romp; kegs tend not to pay themselves off in coin terms unless used very thoughtfully, which generally requires buying them one by one and only using them for defense where you can get safe drops. Every teamkill with a keg nets you negative coins, so just running out into the battlefield and detonating doesn't turn a profit.

    Also you can just spam wood block to get coins, no matter how annoying that might be for your team :^) .
    All people use wood blocks as a matter of necessity once stone has run out late game.
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  8. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    My back feels so bad... 9 hours of ZAMBIES is hard work.

    Anyways, 600 wood => 4 workshops => 120 coins => 1 keg.
    Not 4 Kegs' worth

    A tree is about 200-500 wood per, and grow in about a minute to 3 minutes, and trees produce more wood with more time.
    Trees are usually grown in about four's, so you can get about a batch of 6 workshops within a reasonable time span.
    Yes it can translate into a stockpile of kegs, but kegs are easily countered, and have to be staggered.
    The issue is if people use this to make ballistae, catapults, boats, or bomb arrows; they are more of an issue than kegs are, because they are harder to counter, and have more assured destructive power.

    Regardless, I know this for a fact because I spend every match making saw-optimal tree farms, and spam wooden doors when I can.
    In fact, the past nine hours have been spent using workshops as a stop-gap measure to get coins to use at the trade shop on the server. (Workshops end up being less efficient/fun than the alternative method~)
    The largest issue by far is that, because of the above reasoning (increased availibility of hard-to-counter munitions: siege/bomb arrows), this only further trivializes builders, buildings, and structures as a whole. (Mostly because of how powerful those things are as it is. Kegs are not the problem in my opinion, knights are pretty damn easy to sucker punch for their keg.)
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  9. toffie0

    toffie0 is sweeter than you <3 Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Sorry I miss read the first post about it.

    I find at the start of the games nearly no one builds workshops. Unless if they themselves are planning to use it.
  10. GrieverJ

    GrieverJ Arsonist

    I don't think this is as big of a deal as some people are making it out to be. Especially since the keg changes, without a catapult/tramp cannon the majority of kegs end up wasted, killing one player or sometimes no players as well as dealing no real damage to the other team's defense. One or two kegs, even early in the match, shouldn't be a game breaker. That said, I'd support lowering the coin yield on building workshops after the build phase. Not because of balance issues, but because building and then destroying your own workshops over and over to get money is a rather counter intuitive mechanic. Every effort should be made to coax players out of their base and into the game, and this is one change that could be made to accomplish that without many side effects.
    Boea and Geti like this.
  11. emasame

    emasame Bison Rider

    its a tactic with a downside. i dont see it as OP or anything like that. you burn practically all your trees in exchange for coins. that hurts your building immensely so its more abuse than anything. Kegs really arent the issue anyway its the bomb arrow spam that can happen with it. but again, tradeoffs.