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Seclevs, Blocks and Physics Headaches

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Geti, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. Zodon

    Zodon Bison Rider

    Messages:
    35
    I think slopes are mainly, as i think one of the devs mentioned before, was to eliminate the need to hold down w and d(or s) to get to the battlefield.
     
  2. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Carrying siege engines around willy nilly is not going to be part of War fwiw. They're way too heavy.
    Bugs like phasing things through walls are what we're working on eliminating now.

    Also "it's not minecraft" isn't really a valid argument is it? Minecraft doesn't have slopes.

    @Reactorcore: It's required that blocks have proper HP for War mode to be balanced - we literally couldn't modify the amount of hits it would take for a block to break with the previous code without wasting a lot of time re-arranging the tilemap and therefore breaking any code reliant on that organisation (read: at least 3k lines scattered through the source, likely more). They're more or less a product of wanting more easily traversible terrain and implementing physics that can deal with slopes - the 2x2 slopes are just nicer to work with at times.

    Assuming that the previous block selection menu will still exist is not safe :) The inventory and actions menu replaces it for all classes.

    Fwiw the slopes only require 1 type of block as they can be rotated and flipped (not 100% done yet, but that's the plan).

    What does the inventory system add? Hmn lets see - building structures in workshops and placing them elsewhere, and therefore a replacement for the difficult-to-extent block placement F menu; storing items in boats, chests, etc, looting enemy bodies properly (with option to drop everything on death), A convenient balancing mechanism for a limit on how much "stuff" you can carry, the code groundwork for simpler, scriptable menus, a generic way of interacting with new, modded objects (no hardcoding), forces better code practice with regard to items as the resource or item or whatever has to be a plausible in-game item as well. Lots of stuff.

    As for irregularly sized blocks in general, they allow a building to be placed fairly quickly provided the items have been created, which alleviates the issue with blocks with configs requiring a dedicated selection system. As a side-effect they also mean that castles break away in larger chunks and helps reduce network load (syncing a bunch of physical objects is more expensive than syncing tiles) and physics load (colliding with twice as many 8x8 only tiles is twice as expensive).

    @Dennisaran: This is a product of clientside physics - the other option is having unresponsive, serverside ingame physics. Most of the time lag acts against the favour of the lagger (there are a few cases where you can get around someone where you shouldn't have been able, but for each of those there are at least 4 frustrating deaths where you thought you were shielding the blow but weren't) so I'm confident that as the userbase grows and more servers are available, ping limits will be lowered - in most other games "high ping" kicks occur between 150-300 ping. Considering KAG behaves well below 200 ping and that above that, any other solution causes the game to become unplayable for the lagger, I'd rather not break how it is.
    Recoding how the game responds to latency is something we might consider looking into after our external deadline, we'll see.

    For the record, I wasn't called a hacker for lagging, I was called a hacker for being called Geti ingame ;)

    "valuable additions to the game later like War mode, vehicles, or a proper inventory system" - this is literally related to all 3 of those. The physics changes are required for vehicles to be able to work, the inventory system was used to place all the blocks in the screenshots you see, and all of this is for War mode.

    We can't just "get boats out" because the rest of the stuff related to them isn't finished.

    Re: "will trampolines bounce everything?" - yes, except for some legacy content like zombies most likely. That's part of why we had to do a lot of physics rework - a trampoline doesn't work if you have a velocity cap in place.

    Re: Grab ledges - uh, not planned. Would be possible to script an automatic vertical boost into that kind of thing for a parkour mod though.
     
    MooCowMan, DrZaloski, Noburu and 11 others like this.
  3. HERaLD

    HERaLD Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    205
    Yes, but what about the Shield Sleds!
     
    Gofio likes this.
  4. ShnitzelKiller

    ShnitzelKiller Haxor

    Messages:
    590
    By the look of it, those special tiles are moving entities like crates and boulders. Even if you did make them snap to the grid in the end, would it lag the game to have a whole lot of them?
     
  5. ImAwesome

    ImAwesome Haxor

    Messages:
    496
    on-topic:
    This looks awesome!Can't wait for ramps/slopes to come out!
    off-topic: Ive seen getiministrator once or twice,i'm guessing thats you?
     
  6. Riletyface

    Riletyface Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    280
    I also saw an MM troll, who would not go out of spectator and led me to a fake site. I saw many people who believed he was real and mostly because he could change his name. Yeah probably a server admin.
     
  7. ImAwesome

    ImAwesome Haxor

    Messages:
    496
    Yes,I was there.
    I half believed he was real
    and half believed he wasn't,
    I mean if I was a dev,I
    would say stuff like "I like pie"
    to trick people into thinking i'm a fake,
    because like Geti,I wouldn't want the whole
    game to turn into a tech support.
     
  8. Grendell100

    Grendell100 Haxor

    Messages:
    132
    It looks good, except for the appearance of new inventory.

    Offtopic question: Riletyface and ImAwesome, how are you add these things to you signature?

    (My English isn't very good. Hope you will understand :))
     
  9. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Getiministrator is me when i'm doing actual forum admin work.

    Appearance of the new inventory stuff is placeholder only :)
     
    Riletyface likes this.
  10. HERaLD

    HERaLD Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    205
    What about the Shield Sleds!
     
  11. Ghozt

    Ghozt Haxor

    Messages:
    1,083
    I mentioned something this in my first posst on the first page.
     
  12. AnRK

    AnRK Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    641
    I don't understand how people can't think of uses for slopes, when they come out combines with the new physics re-write then I'm pretty sure we're gonna see some of the awesome builders we have showing us how many awesome traps can't be made out of them, they'll add a whole new level of ingenuity to trap building, especially along with all the new possibilities with ropes. I'd certainly deem it more useful then a farming system, unless healing becomes alot more difficult then it currently is, I don't really see any major need for it personally. If it does become more difficult to heal, then a few AI bunnies and stuff running about that you can kill and get health from won't be the most challenging thing they've coded I'm sure.
     
    Ghozt and Rayne like this.
  13. HERaLD

    HERaLD Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    205
    Is there any chance of a 2 high 1 wide slanted block that you can go down but not up (Unless you were travelling at very high speed), to be used for things like directing people into spikes or making boulder super ramps?
     
  14. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    yes
     
    Ghozt, Riletyface and HERaLD like this.
  15. ockpii

    ockpii Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    185
    Well, I'm not too excited about this, but I guess I have been becoming the hater around these parts, sadly.

    The inventory thing is kind of a drive off of the ol' "We're changing the clunky menus", because that thing is frigging huge. It's a WIP, I'll give you that, but you're not giving us many certainties as to what is a WIP and what's not. The whole game feels like it can change top to bottom at any moment.

    The quote Ej mentioned about Builders being carrying tons in blocks just feels excessive - I don't feel like that sort of, man, quote-unquote realism is appropriate. Honestly.

    After posting these, and not being the first time in doing so, I do apologize if my words are discouraging, I truly don't mean any harm - I'm sorry, though. I'm just a bit concerned because this is truly a game that I love (and, as such, have publicized a lot) so yeah.
     
  16. Gofio

    Gofio Gunwobbler x3

    Messages:
    1,090
    maybe its an idea to add a nostalgia mode,
    a mode in which you can play KAG the way its now,
    without the big updates that will probably change the whole game.
     
  17. Dennisaran

    Dennisaran Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    30
    Woops. Well look at all the egg on my face.

    Ah, I see. Well as I said, I'm no game dev! It may seem unbalanced to me, but this is obviously due to how it is actually balanced, in order for everyone to be able to play in the first place. Lagger or no. However, in my experience the lag can have a more subtle effect rather than a more obvious one, with the person lagging not even noticing the difference, before someone points out that they are bugging about. I've had instances where I've had 33 ping, and have been the one experiencing bad blocking and unregistered hits, along with hits (stabs to be specific) that somehow travel over 5-6 blocks on a flat plain. In the end I once again have to place my trust in your judgement. Thanks for the explanation, and even responding to my slightly ignorant post at all. I watch further development with anticipation and a dopey grin on my face.

    Cheers!
     
  18. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    There will be classic, incase you haven't understood..
     
    Ej likes this.
  19. Reactorcore

    Reactorcore Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    155
    One thing bothers me about this: will you be able to place any kind of blocks on slopes? If you have a steep slope in front of you, how will you ladder your way up?


    Rotating and flipping? Well that changes everything and demonstrates how powerful the new system will be. Carry on.


    The network load reduction sounds great, but I'm not so sure about those irregular blocks being faster to build structures with as opposed to single blocks. Now, the reason I say this is because I'm not entirely sure how this precraft system will work. I'm speculating based on that screenshot of the inventory here, but it seems like you craft a bunch of blocks, go to the construction site and then drag, rotate and drop the pieces into place.

    The whole motion of dragging and dropping is far slower compared to single block placement if this is the case. Just pointing that out.

    Also, what about having terrain made out of large chunks to reduce network load? Especially the lower underground levels. You could have larger stone resource blocks the size of 2x2 or even 4x4 to greatly save on space, while still being convinient and not game breaking.


    This actually sounds really good. One question though.
    How do you place stuff out of the inventory? Do you drag and drop it or do you select it like in the old menu, then hit a key to activate it? Looking at the WIP screenshot, it remind of that tetris inventory from Deus Ex, which will open up for more flexibility, will also slow down the player if compared to the current system. Not sure how will that play out, but it feels like fast basic tactics can undermine more interesting and complex strategies that this brings. It all depends how the new system will work, so I'm just speculating here.

    All in all I'm mostly convinced about these new systems and welcome them with more open arms now. :shad::thumbs_up:
     
    Dennisaran likes this.
  20. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    It's been a long, long day with visiting family and I'm now going to bed. My thanks to people for generally sticking to the thread's topic while I was away.

    For the record, I don't consider Dennisaran's post as strictly off-topic; plus he has shown himself to be extremely courteous, which makes me even less inclined to hit him with an infraction. Geeze, guys; anyone would think you were hanging out for someone to get 'hammered by FBB'--whether they deserved it or not! Blood-thirsty lot... :huh?:
    ----
    Also, Geti, I too would very much like an answer to this. I'm trying to get my head around how radical these changes are going to be, but until I see them in the test version, I can only wonder... :huh?:
     
    Dennisaran, KnightGabe13 and Hella like this.