Reducing shotgun spam

@AsuMagic - This bit first:

Thing is, Asu, I can't actually see much in your second list that doesn't (one way or another) fall under the category of "support builders and knights" (which is something you've failed to define anyway--i.e. you need to tell us the exact things archers do when they are "supporting"); so I'm a little unsure what you're complaining about.

As I said above, you've not defined what "support" entails, so this sentence is useless. Additionally, you're stating your opinion (which is fine; people are allowed to have opinions) as fact without any kind of reasoning to back it up (not fine; without supporting facts/reasoning opinions are just one person's point of view).

Imagine a world where an archer cannot ever hurt a shielding knight. Well done. You've invented a world full of un-fun where archers have even more reason to be campy fuckers. GG.

So, basically, you're upset that a skilled archer--who has to flirt with instant death by daring to get that close--can manage to force you to waste a precious bomb (which, as we all know, are very expensive and hard to obtain) to obliterate him so you can go on and kill/pillage/coin-and-flag get/etc. while he has to spend the next 15sec respawning? Wait, how is this bad again?

Seriously, when playing against a skilled opponent (knight, archer, builder) it often becomes mandatory to bring along a few... surprises... to help level the field. And in this case, your bomb is a hard counter against the archer (bc, srsly, if they're in cqc with you, then there's little chance they're going to be able to escape unless you're asleep!), whereas the archer doesn't really get a hard counter against you, the knight. Basically, it seems you dislike the fact that a skilled opponent forces you to change your play-style; which is silly, imo--being able to play the same way against everyone is a recipe for making things boooooooring.

Stop and thing about how this would play out. I know, I know. You really dislike cqc. But just stop and think through how this would work:

1. Shotgun is nerfed at close distance.
2. Archers now have zero reason to get closer to the enemy.
3. Shotgun is 'modified' (i.e.: 'buffed') to keep it useful at a distance.
4. Archers now have extra reason to stay as far away from the enemy as possible.
5. 
6. Profit (i.e.: Archers now have every reason to be utterly campy fucks, with literally no incentive given them for not hiding for whole games behind bridges [and, actually, some incentive not to stop camping, bc close-range is now nerfed]).

Can you not see how thing would just be a recipe for bland gameplay and more stalemates?

 

Agreed. People do tend to split it along those lines.

I guess this is where I was thinking that nerfing the distance of shotgun arrows (to, say, 10-12 tiles; thereby making shotgun definitely a short-range attack) would lead to a clear split whereby archers can do an either/or approach:

​

either:

Snipe from a distance without (really) endangering themselves--lends itself to a 'detached, long-range support' model* that focuses on delivery of fire/water/bomb arrows, as well as a kind of "anti-support" role of picking off enemy builders and archers.​

or:

Get closer/more personal and pepper/shotgun enemies while having to take extra care to avoid (generally, instantly fatal) damage--lends itself to a 'aggressive, cqc support' model* that focuses on dps, close harrying/pressuring of enemy front-liners, and invasive havoc creation via infiltration of the enemy's base (read: being a shitter ).
​

I really believe that allowing both playstyles to flourish (and not only "allow", but actually reinforcing them as distinct modes of play through the clarification of shotgun as clearly a cqc tool--not a spam-barrage generator) is what will give us a more varied (and thus, less boring/predictable) game.


*NB: I believe there are multiple, differentiated models of "support". Meaning that people who voice the "archers are support" argument, but fail to provide a sufficiently varied definition of "support" are just people who haven't stopped and considered that maybe (shock, horror) there are different ways one can play this class and succeed + enjoy yourself.

{edit}
For those about to complain about multiple posts, I figured that having seperate posts was preferable to one monster post. Plus, it's not like it really took up any more room.

 

I honestly feel like lining up the top and centre triple-shot arrows for an instant kill on an archer is a skill shot that's worth keeping in-game. Long range sniper support archer works ok as-is, farms coins easily and gives team knights an easy fight. cqc archer is a dice roll a fair bit of the time but can work out well, especially if you get the opening triple shot off. Anyone who plays archer enough knows that multiple triple shots in active cqc is very risky as you're slowed for 5 seconds - a rain of half or quarter shots is where it's at if you're actually close. If you want multiple triple shots you have to grapple away each time and start charging outside of active melee. If you're a knight that can't catch archers in that 5 second window of slow I pity you.

Spam triple shots outside of a cqc role isn't a problem in my eyes - the rate of fire is lower, the arrows go less far, only one of them can be special, and the archer is generally being less useful than they could be with careful single shots and a variety of ammunition.

tl;dr I'm not sold on the proposed change sorry

Re: "bring back chain shots" - yeah we all want to go back to hails of full range full damage arrows, sure, sure.

 

WARNING: Legolas whining incoming

Yeah, it's kind of satisfying to land that instakill, but usually (for me) it's done by accident, and it's really frustrating on the other end. It also took some skill to hit two arrows in a row with legolas.
But usually I think you'd be hiding and you'd only pop out for a second to snap off your shotgun, if you're actually sitting there exposed while you charge your shot and waddle around then yeah you're probably dead, if they actually have counter archers.

Not necessarily, that's why I said there were other ways the legolas shot could have been changed besides making it into shotgun. Here's a couple off the top of my head:

• 2nd and 3rd arrows won't stun
• 2nd and 3rd arrows do less damage
• 2nd and 3rd arrows have consistently less range / distance or fire at different angles, making them harder to aim

I think shotgun is too strong, and legolas is less powerful but more fun for everyone involved. That moment when an enemy archer pops up with a legolas: you have to scramble to dodge the arrows consecutively, but will probably get hit by one or two. That moment when an enemy archer pops up with a shotgun: either he whiffs it or you get hit, because the arrows all come at the same time. In melee, shotgun is way stronger as an execution to deal a consistent, penetrating damage burst to any class, that happens instantly instead of archers being left with a decision of either finishing the chain shot or making a safer escape.

If shotgun was added to reduce arrows raining from the sky, I don't think it worked, because with shotgun the arrow rain is just coming from the side in a faster and less dodgeable manner, which is actually more annoying in my opinion. You can shoot arrow rain over towers with legolas, but if you don't have some sort of platform cover then you should have to deal with arrow rain if archers get in range to do that. That's a pretty classic archer trope that I feel doesn't detract from the game.

Plus it's just cooler imo

 

Eh, fair enough.

Just be prepared for extensive swearing the next time I re-enter IRC after a session trying to play through an archer clusterfuck on a flat map. I literally don't think I've seen one end without it being caused by people abandoning the server or a griefer kegging something.

Ver, please refrain from the antagonism. <3

 

Actually, that's what I was intending with the original idea--have all three arrows break up sooner, making shotgun a definite close to mid-close weapon.

 

Re: "legolas" better at range - this has always been a load of tripe. the rate of fire was always lower than single shots, and was affected by RNG spread as well.

Reducing hold time is possible, though honestly at the moment you're slowed enough to be caught all the time in cqc unless your timing is very solid and your grapple-fu is good, which is where the high skill ceiling of archer comes from. If the speed reduction not existing when holding a shot is still there, that needs to be fixed - honestly I tend not to hold the shot long so I haven't noticed.

I see a lot of triple shot spam as is trying to cqc - and honestly often failing. The consistently good archers are able to use it well, just like the consistently good knights are able to use all the arms at their disposal to catch and deny them.

 

It didn't though, Mr Rose Tinted Glasses, it had RNG spread that frustrated anyone trying to use it for long range burst damage. It allowed you to let an enemy get away by not shooting them for the entire charge time. It was only truly useful within CQC range with the added bonus of all 3 arrows surviving when being used to spam from towers.

I talk about it because everyone seems to pretend class-changing to suit the situation isn't a thing, and push for cross-class balance. Ignoring the community's infliction towards that is an ignorant waste of time.